In this episode of Behind the Prop, hosts Bobby Doss and Wally Mulhearn dive deep into the essential soft skills that set exceptional flight instructors apart from the rest. They explore why teaching ability often outweighs raw flying proficiency when it comes to developing great CFIs, emphasizing the need to hire teachers rather than just pilots. The discussion highlights how emotional intelligence plays a critical role in the cockpit, helping instructors connect with students of all ages and backgrounds while adapting to individual learning styles. Bobby and Wally share insights on managing student progress, fostering accountability, and maintaining clear communication under pressure. They stress the value of effective debriefs and how these moments build trust and accelerate learning. Real stories from their experiences illustrate the shift from demonstrating skills to creating environments where students can learn through guided practice and even mistakes. The conversation also covers professionalism and leadership, reminding instructors that they serve as role models who shape the next generation of pilots. Listeners will walk away with practical strategies to improve their teaching approach, from using lesson plans and objectives to balancing knowledge with empathy. Whether you're a new CFI or a seasoned instructor, this episode offers valuable takeaways for elevating flight training.
In this episode of Behind the Prop, hosts Bobby Doss and Wally Mulhearn dive deep into the essential soft skills that set exceptional flight instructors apart from the rest. They explore why teaching ability often outweighs raw flying proficiency when it comes to developing great CFIs, emphasizing the need to hire teachers rather than just pilots. The discussion highlights how emotional intelligence plays a critical role in the cockpit, helping instructors connect with students of all ages and backgrounds while adapting to individual learning styles.
Bobby and Wally share insights on managing student progress, fostering accountability, and maintaining clear communication under pressure. They stress the value of effective debriefs and how these moments build trust and accelerate learning. Real stories from their experiences illustrate the shift from demonstrating skills to creating environments where students can learn through guided practice and even mistakes.
The conversation also covers professionalism and leadership, reminding instructors that they serve as role models who shape the next generation of pilots. Listeners will walk away with practical strategies to improve their teaching approach, from using lesson plans and objectives to balancing knowledge with empathy. Whether you're a new CFI or a seasoned instructor, this episode offers valuable takeaways for elevating flight training.
00:00
Behind the Prop Intro
[Intro music and announcer]
00:24
Bobby Doss
What's up, Wally?
00:24
Wally Mulhearn
Hey, Bobby.
00:25
Bobby Doss
How are you?
00:27
Wally Mulhearn
I am fantastic as always.
00:29
Bobby Doss
This week, we're tackling a topic that's near and dear to both of our hearts. it is all about flight instruction, and the title of the episode is gonna be "The Soft Skills That Actually Make Great Flight Instructors." It's, something that we talk about at the fly school all the time, and so we are bringing back Jay Robinson for the most all-time guest appearances on Behind the Prop, I think clipping Pat Brown by one episode this week. Welcome back to the show, Jay.
00:56
Jay Robinson
Always glad to be here, Bobby. And I'll, I'll give Pat credit where credit is due. We'll get him on again.
01:01
Bobby Doss
There we go. So Jay and I are in the process of kinda transitioning some of the way we do our hiring for flight instructors. I believe I've instilled in Jay and the team that we don't hire pilots, we hire what, Jay?
01:17
Jay Robinson
We hire teachers.
01:18
Bobby Doss
That's right, we hire teachers. So it's all about being able to teach. And one of the most interesting things that I find, as I still interview and participate in the interview process, is that most people come in and wanna talk about their flying skills. They wanna talk about how good they fly, how, how well they can land in a crosswind, how many hours they have, how many different types of airplanes they've flown. And they never-- they almost immediately, every instructor that I interview I have them teach me something pre-solo, and I've heard pre-flight actions more than I can tell anyone on this podcast, but they always go way overboard for a pre-solo student. They don't have any capacity, like they're teaching a CFI candidate how to be doing pre-flight actions. I've heard "pave," I've heard "aviate with a one," I've heard "eight tomato flames," and this is supposed to be a fifteen-minute teaching session for a private- It's pre solo student, and they just can't balance, and none of them start with a lesson plan. They never start with an objective, they never start with completion standards, and I really wonder why those fundamentals of instruction go out of the window so quick, but it's-
00:26
Jay Robinson
Because that's the way they were taught.
00:36
Bobby Doss
How can we do it better? How do we tackle this episode, Jay? How do you introduce this to the team and all the, the subsections we're gonna talk about tonight to make the audience understand there is a better way?
00:51
Jay Robinson
I think the, the best way I can sum it up, and you've already kind of teed this one up for us, is that we effectively know ninety-nine percent of the time, if you get to the level of being a flight instructor, that you can probably fly an airplane, and that's not really what we're worried about most of the time. The real challenge is, can you help impart that knowledge to someone else? Can you be a good teacher? Can you communicate effectively, adapt to different learning styles, keep your students motivated? Motivated and managed and keep them on track, and it's all of these skills that surround the actual process of flying that really separate the okay instructors from the great instructors.
00:33
Bobby Doss
For sure. And it really is. Also, Jay and I have onboarded dozens of new flight instructors, and during our onboarding session, we go through this process where we have them talk about what makes a bad flight instructor. We always start with what makes a bad flight instructor, and it's Lack of knowledge, being late, it's, it's the common stuff you would think about. But when we transition from what makes a bad flight instructor bad, then we go from what makes a flight instructor really good, everybody lights up, they get excited, they tell us who was their best instructor. And they go through this repertoire, and it always starts with knowledge. Definitely a deep understanding of all things aviation is important, but then it was, it's almost always they were able to teach me something. The teaching is a big, big deal. And so Wally, you've been doing this for longer than maybe both of us combined. What What are some of the things that you think about the difference between a pilot and a teacher?
00:35
Wally Mulhearn
Well, let me go back and tell a story from, I don't know, maybe this was twenty-five or thirty years ago. I think most people who've listened to the show know that I come from a musical background. So I was, you know, I was in, in band in high school, in college. I started out in college as a music major on a full music scholarship. and I, I, anybody that'll ever listen to me, n- will n- hear me at some point say the three most influential men in my life were number one, my father, and number two, and number two A, my high school band director, and my college band director. and my, my high school band was, was very good, and my high school band director was a little bit of a tyrant, but I, I got along with him, he liked me, and it was, a, a really good relationship. He was a great teacher, but having said that When he, at toward the end of his life, he was, he was dying. He had, he had cancer, and he was in the hospital down here in Houston. I grew up in Louisiana, but he was in, in the hospital in Houston, and literally on his deathbed. And I would go down and I would visit him, and we would just sit in his room and, and just talk. And, he looked over at me at one point, he had a tear in his eye. And he said to me, "I owe you an apology." And I said, "What?" He says, "I owe you an apology." And I said, "Why do you owe me an apology?" He says, "Because when I was your high school band director..." It was all about the music, he said. Later in my life, I learned that it wasn't all about the music, it was all about the kid. And I, that has stuck with me, that this is what this man, felt the need to say to me as he was dying. And I think we can apply that to aviation as a flight instructor. Is it all about the flying or is it all about the student and, or, or the, the pilot, whatever we wanna call it? Somebody, I, I referred to someone as a student a few weeks ago and someone said, "Uh, that's offensive, I shouldn't call him a student." But I, I consider myself still a student of flying, you know? I've been flying for a long time.
01:05
Bobby Doss
I disagree. I disagree with that 'cause we should all be students.
01:08
Jay Robinson
Yeah.
01:08
Wally Mulhearn
I, I disagree too. I Customers, should we call them applicants, should we call them students? Look, I, I, I believe they're students.
01:18
Bobby Doss
Yeah. Yeah. I'm a student, so let's, let's just stick with that. I, I'm, I'm a student. You know, I'll bet if you went to Tom Brady and said, "Are you a student of the game of football?" He'd say, "Yes." But anyway, having said that, it made me really think, you know, is, is it about the flying or is it about the, the student? And I think that A, a successful CFI to make it about the student. Now, what are we teaching? We're, we happen to be teaching flying. It could be, it could be golf. It could be basketball. It could be the game of chess. What we are teaching?
01:01
Jay Robinson
Amen.
01:01
Bobby Doss
So segment one, Jay, and this is your outline, so I'll, I'll tee some of this up, but segment one is flying skills versus teaching skills. Let's have a conversation. I mean, obviously, if it's a discovery flight and the person participating in the discovery flight doesn't know how to land a plane, the person in the right seat needs to be able to land the plane, but- What, what's the balance between flying skills versus teaching skills?
00:26
Jay Robinson
I think the easiest way to illustrate that is if, if all of us think back to the flight instructors who influenced us a lot, I would challenge anyone to think back, like, how often did your instructor, that you thought was that really, really great instructor, ever take the controls? Maybe very occasionally in the beginning of your training, but it's not about showing someone else that you're capable of doing something, it's really getting into that teaching Mindset, I think, is where we fail as an industry just overall because our, our focus in how we train flight instructors, how we train the trainers from a industry-wide standpoint is that we're so focused on them just being able to demonstrate this really, really high level of knowledge, and not that that's wrong inherently, but I don't think we really spend a lot of time on the teaching aspect of it, you know, to your point Point about the FOIs, I think the reality in the industry is that it's, it's just another thing that we have to do to get where we want to go versus something that people really take to heart as something they're gonna apply in their day to day when all of it is hugely important, you know? I think, I think we see a lot of instructors, I know me and you have, who- It's clear that they have that knowledge, but it's really difficult for them to get that out to somebody who is truly a day one student. And so that kind of flying skill versus teaching skill dichotomy, I think, yes, you've gotta be a good pilot to be a flight instructor, but you've got to learn some of these things, and the reality is, you've gotta come in on day one prepared to admit that you're probably not a great teacher yet and that you are gonna- to have to continue learning about how to impart that knowledge to a student. I think to try to say that we could make the perfect teacher on day one is unfortunately probably a pipe dream. I think we can do a lot better, but I think from the, the attitude of someone who's coming into being a CFI, staying really, really open, the, the first pretty good chunk of your CFI career is gonna continue to be a learning experience for you is the other thing that I think really sets apart the instructor That become great versus the ones that are just okay.
00:49
Bobby Doss
No doubt. I, you've been there. I get to spend a lot of time onboarding instructors, and I've got my knowledge, my knowledge is nowhere near what most of the instructors have, but- Normally somewhere in the onboarding process, I start to challenge them about how gyros work. And, you know, they're so confident when you start talking about it, but they're, they're rote knowledge. It's the book message every time. And I say, "So what do you think a gyro does in outer space? Like if it's, if a, if a guy in space just lets go of the gyro, what happens to it?" And they're like, "Well..." I guess in space it might tumble. And they, they go through this thought process where they, they know they know the information, but they start questioning their own knowledge, and they say, "Well, it's gonna be rigid in space, that's what I heard." And then I say, "Outer space, no gravity," and they start, they start questioning themselves, they start getting all flustered. And I'm like, "Well, how are you gonna teach gyros to students?" And then we watch a s-a guy in the International Space Station use a gyro. And it, it's like a light bulb moment. You, you wish you could show this to people when they're private applicants or private students to say, "Hey, this is how it really works." But we don't. We spend so much time on that rote level, the book knowledge, it spins, so it's, it's rigid, it's, you know, "processions procession." We say all these things, but really are we teaching it or are we just regurgitating information? So I would say it's not about the instructor being able to demonstrate their knowledge, it About them being able to teach the knowledge that that, ultimately that that student needs to have, and that would be game-changing for all of you out there for sure. Wally, anything to add on flying skills versus instruction or teaching skills?
00:39
Wally Mulhearn
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I, I would say this, you know, I, I do CFI check rides, I don't do initials, but I do, CFA and MAI check rides, and a lot of times I will, I'll ask the, the applicant, I'll say, "What do you think the primary job of a CFI is?" And, and I'm gonna-- I'll give you what they give me, and then I'll give you what I think the correct answer is. And this is a very, loosey-goosey question. I mean, there could be a million correct answers. But anyway, eventually the applicant will say, "Well, it's, it's to teach." And I say, "Okay, alright, well, that's, that's a very basic answer, and, and I can't disagree with that." But I'm gonna, I say I have a, what I believe is a better answer. I think the primary job of an instructor, and it can be anything, it can be teaching anything, but in this we're using a CFI, the primary job of a CFI is to provide an environment where learning can take place, because for learning to take place for a student It doesn't have to be taught. Sometimes it's better if they learn without it being taught. And, and I'm gonna use an example right now. If you, if you Google, if you just Google the learning pyramid And, this, this image will come up, and it, it's a pyramid, and it, it talks about how effective different ways of teaching are. The, at the very top of the pyramid, which is five percent, it is lecture. So lecture is five percent effective. It is the least effective way of learning. And how do we usually teach? It's usually via lecture. Now, does that mean I have to say something twenty times for someone to get it? Maybe? 5% is one out of twenty. The most effective way to learn something is to teach it. It's 90% effective. So I challenge these new CFIs that maybe the best way to teach their student is to have their student teach them. Kind of, kind of turn things around. And sometimes, sometimes, you know, th-those of us who have been parents, we know that maybe our, our kids learn better By, w-without me actually teaching. So maybe, just maybe the most effective way of teaching is to kind of back off a little bit. And that's, that's something different from what anybody ever heard. Anytime I've been at a school that, that's, that's doing a, maybe a, a classroom situation teaching CFIs, they're in there and they're telling them that they have to talk, and they have to talk, and they have to talk. Well, at some point, the student needs, needs to- Need some space, if you will.
00:43
Bobby Doss
Yeah, we've talked, of course, I've listened to every episode, I've been on every episode. you've said it a few times, but those that are new to the show might not have heard it. Your daughters both said that you were their best flight instructor, and there was one reason why, and that one reason has always stuck with me. And if I ever get my certificates to be able to teach, I will take this to heart. Why do your daughters think you're their best flight instructor?
01:10
Wally Mulhearn
Because they said I let them make mistakes. And that is so powerful. I still to this day hear, "Uh, so-and-so corrects me too quick." Like, and they probably had some experience where they were able to beat- Given the chance to have that space and make a mistake, I think that's where learning occurs. I think that's what teaching's all about, right? When someone starts deviating off course five degrees and you just pull the yoke back and say, "What are you doing?" and they're a private student, they're never gonna be able to keep up with that heading indicator on their own if someone's fixing it every five degrees.
00:50
Bobby Doss
Right. Alright, Part Two, Emotional Intelligence in the Cockpit. And if I have one weakness, it is a lack of emotional intelligence. It's not that I have a lack of it, I have a lack of probably paying attention to it, but, it's probably helped me be successful in some respects, but- Man, I flew with a guy, I've told this story a bunch, but I, I normally would let flight instructors have a lap in the pattern 'cause I knew they never got to fly And he took a lap in the pattern in AviSota, and as soon as I gave him the controls, he went, pulled back on the yoke, went full flaps, nosedive to the numbers, probably banked at sixty-five degrees. I was scared of flying at that point, and he had no idea. How far he set me back with one little landing. That was maybe impressive, but I was so scared it didn't impact me whatsoever in a positive way. How, how do we manage the emotional intelligence, Jay, in the cockpit?
00:53
Jay Robinson
As new flight instructors who think they have to talk all the time, we might train a sixty-five-year-old person in the morning, we might train a sixteen-year-old person at lunchtime, and a thirty-year-old career changer in the afternoon. All of those are gonna be different conversations and emotions.
01:13
Bobby Doss
Absolutely. And I really think, for me, there's kind of two primary parts of it. The first one is gonna sound very obvious and seems like it would just be blindingly obvious to most people, but I tell instructors all the time, like, read the room, like, really try to get a feel for the state that your students in. And it might not be anything crazy, but something as simple as just, you know, kind of a friendly, like, "How are you doing?" conversation at the beginning of your lesson before you- Really dive into business can one, have a big impact on that person feeling more positive about the lesson that day, and two, gives you an opportunity without just coming straight out and having to pull it out of someone if maybe they're a little bit nervous about what we're gonna go do today. Maybe we've been talking about stalls and now we're really gonna go do them, and that sounds a little intimidating, and that leads into the second point, which is, it even as crazy as it sounds to people with a lot of hours, like that That two hundred and fifty to three hundred hour CFI has just forgotten the level of intimidation there was as a new pilot and just putting yourself back in that new person's shoes and remembering like Wanting to do well, wanting to perform well for your instructor, wanting to be good at this, being nervous, you know, having, you know, maybe they studied, maybe they didn't, maybe they wanna tell you that, maybe they're never gonna tell you that, but all of these emotions are on high, and I think most of the people who choose to pursue aviation, for better or worse, are extremely passionate about it, which is great for the most part, but it all just kind of creates this big feedback loop, and I think your example is a great- Great one, of how, how something that probably seemed like nothing to that instructor had a huge impact on your aviation journey and learning how to fly. I think we do that all the time, probably in more subtle ways, we set our students back in ways that we don't mean to, but it's because we've forgotten what it's like to be a new student and we're not taking that little bit of time to read the room.
00:25
Wally Mulhearn
I, I hear it almost every day, and he knows who he is if he's listening. He's the loudest, most vocal flight instructor we have right now, and he's a great storyteller. But he tells stories in the kitchen at lunchtime about- Whatever went wrong that morning, and it could be as simple as a light that was out or a rough-running engine during the run-up that they were able to clean the spark plugs or whatever, but it, it Reverbs through the entire building, and there could be a kid sitting up front ready to take a discovery flight, and to him it's no big deal. He knows it's not, it's just, it's just normal. But that kid sitting up front hearing that, hey, a student tried to kill me this morning I'm sure that changes their mindset about what's about to happen on that discovery flight. it, it's the extreme, but it is part of what we get numb to.
01:14
Bobby Doss
I, I tell people, for some reason, one of my skills is I'm able to put myself back in that four hour window when I had two flights under my belt. I can remember what it was like going to the flight school, what I was thinking about driving up to the flight school. If instructors could set themselves in that position again And know how little they really understood and what it took for them to get all that understanding, it would change the way they go about teaching people, for sure. I, I tell, I tell new flight instructors all the time how the students look up to the flight instructors. Most of the time, most of the time, you know, you develop a relationship with your flight instructor, and you, you, you, man, you emulate them. You, you, you, you do what they do. If they're not doing checklist, you're not gonna do checklist. and, and I, I used the example a couple years ago, I said, "Just look at the kind of, the brand of headset you..." You use, you watch, when your student goes to buy a headset, they're gonna buy the same kinda headset that you have. I had a, a gentleman a couple weeks ago for a double eye check ride, and he had a Lightspeed headset, which At, at least around here, most people have Bose headsets. I, I would say eighty percent have Bose and fifteen percent David Clark. So, so you don't really see a Lightspeed headset, which I've used them and they're, they're great headsets, by the way. And I said to the, the, the applicant, I said, "Just curious, why do you have a Lightspeed headset?" And he, it was like I, I threw a softball up to him. He goes, "Well, that's what my, my initial CFI had." So yeah, I, I think CFIs, you gotta understand that these people look up to you. They look up to you just, I mean, you're, you're a little bit on a pedestal. so yeah, I don't know that instructors really understand how much they look up to them, and I don't know how much they understand the impact of their bad behavior or lack of good behavior. But one thing I can close this segment with is that when a stressed student is stressed, learning will stop. And we all want students to be learning, we all want students to be better. And so in that moment when the flaps went full and the nose went over thirty degrees, I definitely stopped learning. And so you gotta find that balance, and it's a great segue into segment number three, which is how do instructors learn to adapt to different learning styles?
00:47
Jay Robinson
as a now commercial multi-engine jet pilot, I never thought I would be here, but I never- I didn't think I would be here, so I didn't start learning that way either, right? And so the, the day that an instructor told me, "Memorize the ACS and don't come back until you do," kinda Shunned me a little bit to the whole world of aviation, like that wasn't my goal, that wasn't my rep-repertoire. I wanted to be a good family pilot, so I wanted to be safe, I wanted to be smart, but, man, go memorize the ACS or don't come back. That's not the right way. That's two different learning styles probably. Jay, what are your thoughts on what you see with instructors and what you see with our fourteen-year-old students and our forty-four-year-old students and our eighty-year-old students? There's different- Styles across those age groups, what, what do you think they need to think about?
00:41
Jay Robinson
Absolutely. I think the, the first point, and we see it all the time, is everyone's initial inclination is gonna be to try to teach the way that they learned, the way that they were receptive to. And you've gotta remember, it worked for you, but that doesn't mean it's gonna work for everybody. And I think the best way to approach, if you're a new instructor and dealing with a few different students, is you're gonna have to start somewhere, start basic and start fundamental, and then experiment a little bit with each of those students, see what they respond well to, see what they kind of get glazed over at, and try to fix those, just try to pick those things up in a way that You know, you're not necessarily gonna know it on day one, but by call it day two, three, you should have a decent idea of that person's learning style. You know, if we wanna, you know, if we wanna use age as the dividing point, you know, we set a, a fourteen-year-old student or a forty-four-year-old student, obviously you're gonna have two very different approaches, and I think that has As much to do with just generational differences as it really does with just the physical age difference, but, you know, you've got to adapt to the way that that person has
25:56
Wally Mulhearn
been presented and digested information their whole life.
26:00
Bobby Doss
you know, you're a fourteen-year-old Real simple, when I meet new students or even in like an orientation, I talk, I talk about it openly, like there is no chance that I could sit down and read the pilot handbook of aeronautical knowledge tonight, and I, I probably need to know something that's in that book. New, that I haven't paid attention to in a while. But I had a friend who worked for a big oil and gas company here in town ask me, "What do I need to do to be a pilot?" And I said, "Well, here's a book. It's the airplane flying handbook and the pilot handbook of aerological knowledge." And like four days later, he goes, "Okay, now what am I supposed to do?" And I'm like, "Well, I don't think skimming them's gonna get it done." And he's like, "No, I read That's, that's pretty drastic. He goes, "No, I seriously asked me any question." So I asked him a pretty in-depth question about weather, and then I asked him a pretty in-depth question about stability, and the dude just so happens to have a photographic memory, and he was done. And he was like, "What else can I study?" You know? I could never read a book like that. It's normally, "Do you like videos? Do you like one-on-one? Do you like group? Do you like reading? What, what is your, what's your appetite for And that's a simple way to start if you're a flight instructor. You can normally start picking up. I'm gonna assume a fourteen year old person probably likes videos on YouTube more than they like reading a book. Maybe a forty-four year old person likes reading, little less videos, but maybe some online quizzes, right? They're, they're, everyone's gonna have a different way to intake information. While you're still learning, you just got a new type rating, what's your style of learning? If someone's gonna share information With you, what's your approach to take that information in? Well, Jay, Jay said it earlier in the episode, he said, "Read the room." And, that, that is it. That is, that's, that is it. I'm, I'm probably a little bit of a weird duck. There are things that, you know, I, I probably respond to sarcasm really well. I could go in and, you know, just about crash a simulator and, and the instructor, instructor could say Man, that really sucked. And, and it's not gonna offend me 'cause it, it did really suck. So, and, and I'll tell ya, my first few landings in the 787 simulator really sucked. I, I joked with, with, The instructor we had the next day, I said, "Uh, if you, if you saw the news that there was an earthquake in Denver last night, it wasn't an earthquake, it was me trying to land this freaking simulator." So, you know, I-- And I'm gonna say, ninety-eight percent of the people probably don't, don't really learn from sarcasm or that kind of stuff. So, you know, I, I just, I wanna be presented with the information in a pro-professional way, you know, don't, don't talk down to me, but also don't try to overload me. you know, it's like you, Bobby, I, there's no way I could sit here and read the P-HACK, I'd be asleep on the middle of page two. But there is so much good stuff. That would be after I reread page one like four times, 'cause I don't have to reread it four times. Right, right. There is so much good stuff in there, and, and I tell people, you know, they, they ask about reading it, I said it, to me it's not a reading book, it's a reference book, you know, if, if you're gonna, if you're struggling with steep turns, maybe, maybe go read this, the thing about, the, the section about steep turns. But again, and I, I, I'll go back to that learning pyramid, I know at United Airlines, we, we do, you know, as, as check, check airmen, we, you know, we do a lot of train-the-trainer kind of training, and, a lot of it is, is getting up and teaching. And so that's, you know, I'm learning by teaching. Now, how am I teaching? I'm teaching via lecture probably, which is only five percent effective, but- The point of, of the drill is to teach me, not so much to teach, the, the mock students, if you will. Right. To wrap this section up, I really think a great instructor adapts, a weak instructor blames, and I see it around the fly school, you know, they're just not coming prepared, they're not doing their part. I normally would push and push a little harder and say, "W-what do you think you might not be doing right? What do you think you might not be adapting to?" And those that listen and heed that, they, they, they get better really, really, really quick. Section four here, managing student progress versus accountability. Man, if I had a nickel for the number of times I said accountability in the last six weeks, I'd be a rich man. It's kind of the motto, at our, in our student success team and what we're trying to do with our instructors right now. Yes, students should be held accountable. We should be accountable, but how do you hold an eighteen-year-old adult accountable to doing their homework and coming prepared? Good instructors find a way to do it. Good instructors find a way to have that plan for success It's all we talk about right now, Jay. I'm interested in hearing w-where this comes into your outline for tonight and where you think managing a student's progress and accountability Sticks for you over the past couple of years at United Flight Systems.
27:43
Jay
Absolutely. So to me, it's figuring out the line between creating accountability without it either all being carrot or all being stick. I think A lot of instructors, and I mean, don't get me wrong, like my-- the instructors that I thought were my best instructors were probably like ninety percent stick and ten percent carrot, but I was very motivated, I wanted to be really good. But at the same time, they weren't ever discouraging, you know? And I think that's where instructors tend to either early in their career kind of let their students get away with just about anything and just say, "Well, there's not a whole lot I can do about it," or they try so much stick right out of the gate that it discourages a lot of people and keeps them from Being able to accomplish that learning, and for me, once you get over that and you figure out, okay, I have to find the right path, and again, adapting, every student's a little different, somewhere in that continuum of carrot and stick, but to me, it starts with just setting really specific expectations. I think, you know, homework is an example that I'll use. I know me and you have spent a considerable amount of time trying to create For each lesson, very, very specific expectations on what the homework is. I think for me, one of my early frustrations in flight training was, "Hey, this is what we're gonna go work on our next lesson. You know, go look at that section of the airplane flying handbook." And that was really the only guidance in terms of how to be prepared for that next lesson. And so homework's an easy way to talk about it, but set really, really clear expectations for your students in terms of what does A productive study session entail, again, the methods might be a little bit different for everybody, but the desired outcomes are pretty consistent. What does arriving for a flight fully prepared look like? you know, just talking through these things that I think somebody who's been flying for quite a while maybe takes for granted and just knows that those things have to be done. and then when they do come in really well prepared and really well studied, make a hundred percent sure, like we're in- That preparation, like we're celebrating those little small victories with them, and when they don't meet those expectations, be honest, be upfront, but you don't necessarily have to be abrasive about it. I think that's where we really build accountability versus it just feeling like, "Oh, I'm just gonna get punished every time I come in for one of these lessons.
34:30
Bobby Doss
Agreed, 100%. I think that, there's so many things students can do for free and not pay United Flight Systems or their instructor, or their independent instructor, wherever they are, and they just don't know how to do it. The, an instructor who tries to build independence is probably the best instructor in the world. And chair flying's an easy thing to do. I, I joke a lot of times, you- What's the cheapest way to practice clearing turns? Right here in my office, right now. I just need to tip that wing up, 'cause I'm in, I'm in a cessna, I need to raise that left wing, look over there, and then I need to turn that way and look for traffic to my right. nothing out there, nothing, no obstructions, no towers, no nothing. About ninety degrees, turn back. I can do that over and over and over again for free, zero dollars. Talk myself through it, read the maneuvers guide And my maneuvers guide it probably says clear the area thirteen different times for thirteen different maneuvers. That clearing turn is extremely expensive to try four or five times in the practice area tomorrow. I can do it right here, over and over and over again. And those instructors that don't teach that or don't encourage that are the instructors that are probably having ninety, hundred hours private pilots. There's so much you can do on your own to become independent. the best instructors, I think, teach confidence and independence, not dependency on me, right? I, I normally pick on instructors, they say I'm getting a lot of text messages from my students at night. That's probably your fault. You're, you're enabling that, you're giving them that, that lifeblood and not teaching them to be independent. So if that's you, if you're out there and you're an instructor, find a way to create that independence. Communication under pressure, segment number five, communication under pressure. Jay, I'll give this one to you again.
36:28
Jay
Yeah, absolutely. You know, you, you brought up a good point earlier with an instructor that we were talking about who's a great storyteller. I think there's a time and a place, but I've heard and seen and worked with instructors time and time again that aren't necessarily saying anything that's not true in the airplane or giving feedback that's not valid or not important about what's going on. But I think they forget again how saturated a new student is, and I would say in a lot of ways, Wally mentioned it earlier, but less is more in a lot of ways when you're in the airplane, you know? And not only in less words, but more concise, calmer, very clear. You know, I've, I've definitely seen and worked with some instructors in my career that just, you can tell they're, they're maybe still in control of the situation situation, but they get visibly flustered when things aren't going the way that they want them to go, and they're just adding to the stress of the situation. You know, I've, I've watched an instructor in an instructional environment with some very good friends of mine, you know, the, the situation was very, very minor. It was just, you know Wanting to extend a little bit and slow a descent down as we were coming into a runway, and just, you know, instead of saying, "Hey, we need to add a little bit more back pressure," that takes two seconds to say, just kept saying "ease up" over and over again, and louder and louder, and that communication was not accomplishing anything, especially in a situation where you're already under pressure and now you're only creating more. So I would say clear, concise, and calm would be my Three C's of how to communicate with students in the flight training environment.
38:16
Bobby Doss
I like it, Wally, what do you have there?
38:18
Wally Mulhearn
You know, Jay, you, you used the phrase less is more, you know, again, going back to my musical side, me-- you know, I'm a drummer, and sometimes the most effective thing I can play on a song is not to play. And it, it takes kind of a maturity level to realize that, hey, the, the, all this song needs is the guitar and the vocal, it doesn't need drums. So I'm just gonna get the hell out of the way. Same thing in an airplane. Sometimes the most effective thing I think an instructor can say to a student is to say nothing. Just, I mean, just put that in your toolbox as kind of a, a, a tool. Sometimes it might be appropriate to say nothing. And I've always felt this way, I think I've brought it up on the show, and I want y'all's feedback, but I've always thought I was a better pilot when I was the only one in the plane. Meaning, when the instructor wasn't there, when I can remember soloing, that very first time, and I was thinking, "I ain't got nobody to ask, I have no crutch, there was no one, nothing to, lean on." the first time I probably took my wife on a long cross country, man, was I on my A-game? Was I overdoing it and thinking it? When you have that person that's just berating you or constantly saying, "What are you missing? What are you missing? It's five T's, not three T's Makes you a weaker pilot when there's no one there. When there is that vacuum of silence, it is crazy how good we individually get. Do y'all have any... Are you backing me up on that comment at all?
40:02
Jay
Oh, I definitely agree with that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, this definitely, I think it, it goes into that as we've talked about, and Wally mentioned before, we all kind of put our instructors on a pedestal, I think regardless of how far in this industry and this career we get, but it's that deep-seated desire to impress the person that's in the right seat and demonstrate that you can do a good job, and I think sometimes we all psych ourselves out and end up doing worse because that person is sitting there and we're trying to-
40:33
Bobby Doss
Yeah, and I'll, I'll take, I'll take it one step further, not, not with your instructor sitting in the, in the, the, the other seat, how about an examiner sitting in the other seat? 'Cause what I get all the time, and deep breaths is, "I've never done that in my life." And I'll say, "Well, you did it eight times today." It's weird that that just popped up. And I can remember very vividly trying to impress Roscoe and Wally on my first two check rides, and I'm such an idiot looking back hindsight, twenty thousand hours, twenty thousand hours, what's, what's, what's a seventy hour guy gonna impress them with, right? So, It, there's always an opportunity to learn. I think the airplane creates enough stress as it is, the instructor shouldn't add to it. That's the key. Let there be a little bit of a break there. Segment six, and this one, we got two more, we're running a little long, but I'll, I wanna hit all these. The debrief is truly where The actual learning occurs, right? And I think so often these young instructors, they kinda just rush the debrief. if you fly with me and you work at United Fly Systems, you better debrief me, you better have some criticism, you better be making me a better pilot. My money's as valuable as anyone else's money. I'm paying you to make me a better pilot, not to just give me one point six hours in the airplane. Wally, I'll start with you. I know you debrief every flight. How important is the debrief in your check rides, in your lessons when you're teaching, and in your aviation career as a professional captain? How valuable is the debrief?
42:14
Wally Mulhearn
It's critical, and sometimes, now, a-and you, you mentioned something earlier, but I think it's, it's just as important to debrief The positives as, as well. It's not just about talking about what, what, what went wrong. a, a my airline job, a United Airlines, we're required to debrief every flight, and it may be, you know, it, it may be a ninety-second debrief sitting on the flight deck as we're, you know, deplaning the airplane, it might be on the van ride, it might, might be over dinner at night, but, but we do, and, and we, you know, we talk about what went well, we talk about About maybe what didn't go so well, but, you know, I will, on, on a check ride, I'll, we'll get back in the room and I'll say to the applicant, "Okay, debrief yourself," and they immediately go into All the things that, that they thought went poorly. And, and I'll usually stop them, I'll say, "Okay, I want, I want you to tell me one thing that went, very well. I want you to tell me one thing that went not so well, and then I want you to tell me another thing that went very well." so, you know, I'll specifically ask for two good things and one bad thing, sandwiched in the middle, so we start out good, we end good. another thing I would say the lobby of the flight school isn't a good place for a debrief, okay? and I, I see it at some flight schools, and I'll, I'll throw this out there, it's not at yours, 'cause you, you specifically have offices for, for all your instructors, and I see them in their offices, and, you know, in, in a-- and if it, if it needs to be private, they can close the door. Sometimes the door is open, but sometimes the door is closed. But, you know- Debriefing in the lobby, telling your student, "Okay, good job, I'll see you tomorrow." They, they need more than that. They really need more than that because, I think most people on the way home, however long the drive is, whether it's a five minute drive or an hour drive, they're gonna replay the flight and they're gonna go through things. So the debrief is a, is a critical time for teaching to happen. And again, the, the debrief doesn't have to be the instructor Or talking the whole time, it can be the, the student talking a lot of it. Jay, what are your thoughts on the rushing of it or the lack of content? I mean It, it's so, I mean, we're going back-to-back-to-back, we're all rushing every day, we're all busy people now, we gotta check Snapchat or something else, but what, what would be your- Recommendation to instructors out there, if they're gonna do a debrief, how should they do it?
44:51
Jay
So to address the rushing aspect of it, I think it, it all starts with a conscious decision to Validate for yourself as both the instructor, someone who's continuing to learn, that it is something that is worth spending the time on. Like if we continue to treat it like an afterthought after a lesson or just a thing that we have to do versus being a really, really valuable part of the learning process, no matter how we try to conduct it, it's never gonna be as effective. and then I would say once you have made that realization and acceptance that the- Debrief is as important as it really is, I would say, again, I think I'd continue to reiterate being concise and being clear with your students on both the positives, the negatives, and then setting those expectations on how to be even better prepared for that next lesson. I think, you know, me and you see it all the time. We look at training records all the time. We see a lot of debriefs that somebody wants to say something positive, and so it just starts with A very vague, "Great flight today, good job," and then dives into some technical aspects of what didn't go so well. I think you're setting your students up for failure when you create this kind of vagueness at the beginning by saying "Good job" at the beginning of every debrief when maybe genuinely it didn't go that well today. So I think, as Wally said, both celebrate what goes really well, thoroughly debrief what doesn't go very well, but be specific In all cases, I would say are my two big beliefs in terms of the debrief.
46:54
Bobby Doss
Yeah, I've yet to meet a pilot who's not hard on themselves. And I would say most flight instructors are too soft or easy on their students, right? You don't have to browbeat everything, but I would bet most pilots wanna hear straight up, like, "Tell me what I did wrong. I can tell you that was my experience at the Vision Jet, center. I felt like the guy just tiptoed around a bunch of things. You know, I think the flight creates the experience for the students, and the debrief creates the learning. And if you're not teaching, if you're just saying, "Good job, see you next time," "Go read a chapter of the book," you're not giving yourself the chance to truly be a teacher and give that student the opportunity to learn. Segment seven, this is the last one, professionalism versus leadership conversations. I guess it's both, it's professionalism and leadership conversations, Some eighteen-year-olds don't have the experience, some nineteen-year-olds, twenty-year-olds that are doing this first big job they've ever had, they don't know how to do this. I, I try to teach and implore upon them some of my, my experiences, my mentors, my things. I give everybody a book, I want 'em to read, I want 'em to learn. What are the thoughts around professionalism and that leadership type conversation? I'll let y'all to- I'll let you two talk about it, and then I'll wrap it up.
48:19
Jay
Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna exercise my less is more on this one and really ask you, Wally, I think Most of the people in this career aspire to be someday in somewhere near the position that you're in, a senior, well-respected airline captain, and I think again, it's not just the hours that are gonna get somebody there, it's the concepts that we're talking about. What are your thoughts on that?
48:45
Wally Mulhearn
Well, the, the professionalism, I mean, that, that starts, before the-- well, it starts at the beginning of the lesson. It starts by showing up on time. It, it starts by, you know Presenting your, being, being well-dressed. yeah, I, I'm not saying we gotta wear a coat and tie or anything like that, but, but not ragged, not, not look like maybe you were out a little bit too, too late last night. just, you know, professionalism, it means to profess something. you know, we, we think of professionalism as getting paid for something, but that's, that's not really what professionalism is all about. It's when you profess Something. you know, and, and as a flight instructor, whether, whether you want it or not, you are a leader. You're a leader of one person, on, on a given day, and it's, it's one person at a time. Yeah. You know, when we think of leaders, we think of General Patton le-le-le-leading an army, but leadership can be as easy as, as a, a two-person thing, and that's, that's what it is. You- You are a leader of your student, especially, well, a-all throughout, all throughout flight training. So it, it's, really important, you know, just to-- And again, I'm, I'm gonna start with being on time. It is a very important aspect of all this, and I'll wrap it up and say, look, for this, this segment, you're not just teaching maneuvers, you're manufacturing future captains like Wally. If you, if you put yourself in that perspective, and I say this when I bring people on all the time, and I think they might think I'm cuckoo, but my job, my job, my role at United Fly Systems is to make them better Flight instructors and better human beings, and that maybe sounds really weird to young kids, but it's not just how to be a better instructor, it's, it's all my experience I'm trying to implore upon them and make them better. I will say the instructors that touched my life, the good ones and the bad ones, I remember a lot about them, but I don't know if I ever thought about how good of a pilot they are. I can say years from now, the students won't remember whether you did perfect steep turns as a flight instructor, but they'll remember whether or not you made them feel capable, whether you let them make that mistake, whether you let them learn something. Aviation doesn't need more pilots, they just don't, we don't. We need better teachers. And with that, I'll wrap it up and say, "Think about that, fly safely, and stay behind the prop."
51:28
Behind the Prop Outro
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