Our "mock private checkride" series was so popular... we decided to do it again, but for the instrument 'ride!
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00:00
Nick Alan
Hey, behind the prop fans, my name is Nick, the voice and producer of the behind the Prop podcast. A little note for today's show. This is gonna sound like a joke, but it's serious. Wally just got a new cat. In the middle of recording the episode today, Wally's cat walked across the keyboard and stopped the recording from the feed from his microphone. So just under 30 minutes in, we're gonna pause the show there and we'll call this Show Today Part 1. And then in two weeks the guys will be back. You can join them for part two of this great episode. It's a mock instrument checkride. Let's get to the Prop 73 Cherokee.
00:34
Behind the Prop Intro
Number two following Flint traffic. Three mile final makes for Din Runway two five going four mile final.
00:41
Behind the Prop Intro
This is behind the prop with United Flight Systems owner and licensed pilot Bobby Doss and his co host, major airline captain and designated pilot examiner, Wally Mulhern. Now let's go behind the prop.
00:55
Bobby Doss
What's up, Wally?
00:56
Wally Mulhern
Hey, Bobby, how are you?
00:58
Bobby Doss
I am fantastic as always. This is, we're in our fourth year plus now, Wally, and it's exciting to do this every couple of weeks. Now We've shared over 150 episodes with our listeners and this is going to be an episode that somewhat replicates something we did a few weeks back on Private. Got a lot of good feedback, lots of positive comments, and really people asking for more. And so we're going to do a mock check ride doing the instrument mock CheckRide following the ACS, hopefully kind of loosening the nerves for some people that are about to take that check ride, understand what the ACS guides you through and kind of what the DPE is looking for. Wally, I talk to people all the time and they're like, man, just tell me what Wally's gonna ask me. They want this golden gouge of Wally Mulhern.
01:51
Bobby Doss
Isn't that really just what the ACS is?
01:55
Wally Mulhern
It is. It absolutely is. I mean, we're going to go through the acs, we're going to cover what's in the acs and there's, there are no tricks. There are really no tricks for this. You know, it's right there. I mean, I, I remember my college classes when, you know, when the professor would say the tests are going to come from the study guide, it was like, cha ching. I, I've, I might be able to pass this class because I know where the tests are coming from. Well, the test is coming from the acs and you know, everything is spelled out. Are we going to cover everything, all the knowledge, all the risk element, all the skills. No, we're going to cover one knowledge element, one risk management and all the skills.
02:43
Wally Mulhern
But having said that, you know, the way I'm going to do it's going to be as it relates to a cross country flight and it, you know, it really doesn't matter where we're going. But you know, I give my applicants a cross country scenario from Houston to Tulsa, Oklahoma and it's far enough to where you might want to make a fuel stop, but it's close enough to where you could probably make it non stop if you so choose to do so. So gives you know, gives us the opportunity to discuss, you know, why did, why are we doing this in two legs? Did you consider doing it non stop or. You know, I'm always going to play devil's advocate. If they do it non stop, I'm going to say why didn't you make a fuel stop?
03:40
Wally Mulhern
If they make a fuel stop, I'm going to say why didn't we do it non stop? And you know, they're both correct. However you want to do it, as long as you meet the fuel requirements is it's up to you as the.
03:52
Bobby Doss
Pilot and I probably know the answer to this question, but you're not doing that to be like a jerk dpe. I'm assuming you're doing that to make the pilot think, right? Like why are you doing this? What's the decision making criteria? Are you critically thinking about what this outcome is going to produce when, one way or the other and when does it become, you know, it might be green just to fly direct to Tulsa on a fairly decent day under an IFR flight plan, but it might go yellow or red depending on a lot of other criteria. If it's tornado season in Oklahoma, the movie Twisters out and I did go see it, so you know, that's the time of year you wouldn't want to get caught up in that in a Cessna.
04:34
Bobby Doss
So it changes the thought process and you as the DP are really just trying to make sure you, their critical thinking and, or thought processes are going to produce the right decisions.
04:45
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, and it depends on the airplane too. I mean instrument flying can be very fatiguing, you know, especially to a newer pilot. Doing it, especially if you're an airplane with no autopilot, you know, just flying straight and level in the clouds, you know, might take a lot of brain power and you become mentally fatigued pretty quick.
05:12
Bobby Doss
Yeah, no Question. And it might be easier when you have a little bit of a crew helping you. Then you're all alone with your wife for the first time she's ever been in the clouds. That is. That was me. And the stress level is immensely different when you're not with a CFI and you're doing it by yourself for the first time in the dark, by the way. So those things add up. So you're trying to make sure that the pilot's really going to be capable and safe under all conditions, because you're not giving them an IFR instrument rating to fly on VFR days, filing a flight plan when they can cheat. Right. So. Right, right. You got to make sure they're really capable of doing the job.
05:52
Wally Mulhern
Yeah. And, you know, an instrument rating is very interesting because it is probably the only certification or license, whatever you want to call it. I know, I know it's not a license, so it is a rating, but it's the only, one of the only governmental certifications that you can achieve without ever having done it. Think about this. You go, you could do all your instrument flight training in visual conditions. We're in the hood. And now you come in, you take an instrument check ride, you pass it. Tomorrow you're legal to go out and fly in the clouds.
06:37
Bobby Doss
Two minutes.
06:39
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
06:39
Bobby Doss
You've never, Whatever conditions. Right. Yeah.
06:43
Wally Mulhern
So I, I really would encourage you know, there are certain geographical parts of the country where it's hard to find a cloud. But I, you know, flying in the clouds is. Is liquid. It's gold. It is gold. I mean, it's something that you really hopefully will. Will have some experience. And then after you get your instrument rating, you know, it's not just if you're. You're looking for a, you know, a pilot career, it's not time to put down the instrument stuff and go out and start doing shondells and lazy eights. You've got to hone that skill. And instrument flying is a very erodible skill, especially as a new pilot. It's something you need to do. So you need to look for that day when it's maybe 1800 broken.
07:36
Wally Mulhern
And okay, yeah, let me go out and, you know, pop in and out of some clouds. And then the next day when it's 1400 broken, you got a little confidence. Then it's, you know, 1700 overcast and work yourself up to it. You know, a person who's going to run a marathon, I don't think goes out day one and runs 26.2 miles. I think you would, you'd build up to it. I, I don't know, I've never run a marathon, but.
08:05
Bobby Doss
So if we dive into what to expect, I've got your Tulsa assignment, I've done my flight plan, I've thought through every scenario that you might tell me or ask me about. Based on the what do you give specific weather or do you say, use yesterday's weather, tomorrow's weather, or the day of weather? What do you do from an assignment perspective?
08:29
Wally Mulhern
No, I like to use real time weather because as we're sitting there in the room, I like to say, okay, hey, we're going up here and this happened and you know something where a diversion might be prudent and you know, I want to be able to jump in and say, okay, tell me what the weather is at the diversion airport. So, you know, I do use real time weather and you know, there may not be a cloud in the sky between here and Tulsa and you know, on the day that we're going, but then again, you just never know. So we use real time weather.
09:09
Bobby Doss
I got very lucky on my checkride that you did with me. It was reported calm at every airport for 30 miles. So I had the best instrument checkride weather and winds possible, but I still had to execute. So at the end of the day, you give me the Tulsa, you give me current weather situations. I've done my planning, hopefully I've got a good night's sleep. I come into the checkride room or conference room, wherever I'm meeting my dpe. What's the ACS going to do to start the process? I'm assuming there's some normal formalities that we have to go through on an instrument checkride.
09:49
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, we're gonna qualify the applicant, we're gonna qualify the airplane and you know, make sure you have the required time, the 40 hours of instrument time, you know, the required cross country time and everything. We're going to take a look at the airplane. We're going to make sure the airplane is IFR capable. So it's had its, you know, required Pedot static check and all that. Make sure, you know, I'll ask about the database, make sure it's up to date. And of course we may not see the actual database till we get out to the airplane, but we'll talk about making sure the database is up to date, make sure all their publications are up to date, whatever they're going to Use if it's a EFB or paper charts, which I haven't seen a, I haven't seen paper charts in a long time.
10:41
Wally Mulhern
So most people are using an efb. But just make sure, you know, if we're using the popular one that most of use, make sure there's no red number down at the bottom right. That says you got to update some things. So, so that checks out.
10:59
Bobby Doss
Do. And we talk all the time, so I know the answer, but some of the listeners may be new to the show. What has to be done for you? Is there anything has to be done for you to qualify for the check ride that day?
11:13
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, I mean, I, I have to meet all the requirements. You know, I have to have a current medical and be, be legal to fly the airplane. Again, I'm not, I, I am not usually pilot in command. Instrument checkride is where the, the water begins to muddy a little bit. I can be pilot in command, but the FAA strongly suggests that I not be pilot in command. There have only been a handful of checkrides and, you know, over a thousand where I actually assume the duties of pilot in command. And one of them was actually a checkride that I did at United Flight Systems many years ago. It was the day before Houston hosted a Super bowl and Houston airspace was not accepting any VFR traffic. There wasn't a cloud in the sky.
12:14
Wally Mulhern
But the only way we could do a, an instrument checkride was to file an IFR flight plan. And so technically the applicant is not IFR rated, so they cannot file an IFR flight plan. So we filed an IFR flight plan. I assumed the duties of pilot in command, and off went. So, you know, there, that is one example. And of course I have to be IFR current, so I would say don't plan on that. You know, some examiners are more inclined to assume the duties of pilot command. And we're talking weather, you know, if it is a day where, you know, am I going to do an instrument checkride on a day when it's a thousand overcast? I'm not. Okay. Others may, but I wouldn't. Now if there were a day where it was, I don't know, 20, 2400 broken, would I?
13:16
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, I probably would. So anyway, it just depends.
13:22
Bobby Doss
So you talk through qualifying the pilot, you and the pilot are not qualified. The aircraft's been qualified. What, what does the applicant expect next on a instrument checkride? And you're using the ACS to create your plan of action, right? You, you are required to have a plan of action. We talked about this on the private set of shows. You've got the plan of action. What's, what's next?
13:48
Wally Mulhern
Well, the first thing I'm going to do is I'm gonna say we're doing a, we're taking a cross country flight to Tulsa. How does it look? And you know, the will usually talk about weather. Yeah. Now, now the weather is task B under pre flight preparation and pilot qualification is task A. But will we will. You know, I, it's just a very broad question. How's the weather? Well, it looks pretty good. It's. And, and one thing that I, I will get from a lot of applicants, I'll hear them say, you know, in the scenario we're kind of role playing in that the applicant is instrument rated. So a lot of times I'll hear them say, oh, I wouldn't go. I'd say, well, why not? Why not? Well, it's forecast for Tulsa is 1800 broken.
14:50
Wally Mulhern
I said, well, if you were instrument rated, you would not go. And there's no wrong answer. I mean, if you wouldn't go with 1800 broken, well, you wouldn't go. But you know, I want the, I'm hoping the applicant will be thinking more like an instrument rated pilot and say, yeah, I'm confident in going with 1800 broken. So, you know, Will, we'll talk about, you know, I'll talk about things like, well, what's our routing? How'd you file? Did you file Victor Airways? Are we using VORs? Are we using GPS? So we'll talk about the route and the next thing I will, you know, we'll talk about the time and route. Okay, what's the time and route? Okay, it's three hours, let's say. And well, how much fuel do we have on board? We have five hours of fuel. Okay.
15:46
Wally Mulhern
And again, I like to talk at. Of fuel is as in minutes. Okay. Because that's really where the rubber meets the highway. How much time do we have left then? You know, I will say, I'll say, do we need an alternate today? And it's a little bit of a trick question because I get into having an alternate and filing an alternate. If you read in the regulations under Part 91, they talk about when you must file an alternate. I think every flight you should have multiple alternates. I took a trip to New Orleans earlier in the summer from Houston and the Way I looked at it is I went from Houston to Beaumont to Lake Charles to Lafayette to Baton Rouge to New Orleans.
16:48
Wally Mulhern
And of course, I wasn't zigzagging to get over there, but that's kind of how I was thinking, you know, all along I'm thinking, okay, if I have. I have an issue, I'm turning around and going back. Okay, I'm beyond that. Okay, if I have a problem, I'm going into Beaumont. Okay, so I had all these alternates in my mind. Now, it was a VFR flight, but had I filed ifr, you know, an alternate would not be required to be filed. And so then we will. I'll get into, why do we have to file an alternate? You know, an alternate is our plan B. Why do we have to tell the FAA what our plan B is?
17:38
Wally Mulhern
And, you know, everybody will say, well, for fuel planning, I said, well, on a VFR flight, we've got to have the proper amount of fuel, but we don't have to. We don't have to prove that to the faa, do we? So why do we have to file an alternate? And it really comes down to loss of communications. That is why we are filing an alternate. And, you know, if we have lost calm, where are we going?
18:11
Bobby Doss
What, what do you think causes a lost calm in a lot of circumstances? It's obviously the weather's dictating the requirement to file the alternate. But I can remember again, my flight day was beautiful. A lot of my IFR time, meaning when I've been filed under a flight plan, I've been in VFR conditions. Right? What, what do you think the lost comm reason is going to be most of the time in planes that we're flying?
18:47
Wally Mulhern
I, you know, I don't have any data to back me up, but most of the airplanes that we're flying have two comm radios. So, you know, what are the chances of both comms going out there? Of. Of two comms going out? It's a little bit like, you know, I say to people, how many TVs do you have in your house? And hopefully the. The answer is two or more. And I'll say, what are the chances of both TVs in your house going out? And let's say, well, you know, total loss of electrical power. And I. Oh, exactly. So then I will get into, well, what are we going to do with a total electrical failure? And usually what I get is, you know, and the scenario I'll give, I'll say, okay, this is it's.
19:38
Wally Mulhern
A bad day, okay, it's a really bad day, but it's a thousand overcast everywhere within range of the airplane, and the tops are up to flight level 180, so we can't get above it. We're in the clouds, we're in the soup. And you know, the point that I'm trying to make is in this scenario, not only do we have lost communication, but we have lost navigation as well. You know, they'll say, okay, well, I'm going to file, you know, fly my last assigned route and all. Then they go through all that. But, you know, that's all assuming that we can navigate, we may not be able to navigate, you know, if we've had a total electrical failure, we can't navigate.
20:28
Bobby Doss
You mean the Garmin 430 doesn't run on the vacuum system?
20:32
Wally Mulhern
It does not. Last time I checked, it did not. You know, a lot of people will say, they'll say, oh, yeah, we're going to lose our gps. We're going to have to use, we're gonna have to use the vor. Like, oh, okay, so we got a solar vor.
20:54
Bobby Doss
That's gonna be a bad day no matter what. How you spin it now, at least we get to keep our attitude. And some other things because we do have the vacuum system, but we're not going to be able to do much more than follow a compass and hopefully we've got some really good nav charts and other things. But assuming we're in this bad weather and we've been in this bad weather, what are you expecting an applicant to tell you at that point? Or what do you want them to tell you? What kind of decision making do you want them to have?
21:23
Wally Mulhern
Well, again, this is a really bad day and, you know, a lot of them will say, well, I'm just going to descend. Okay, it's a thousand overcast, so you're just going to descend and hope that there are no towers there. And this, I mean, this may sound really taboo, but could we navigate using the iPad? It might be.
21:48
Bobby Doss
Not legally, Wally, but in this scenario, you're sure I'm going to be.
21:53
Wally Mulhern
Well, you know, is it legal? Because is it now an emergency?
21:57
Bobby Doss
Correct. Good.
21:58
Wally Mulhern
You know, you know, I, I sit there in the briefing room and I say, look, you know, I'm sitting there usually holding a pen. I say, if I bad guy came in this room with a gun and was going to do bad things to us, would I use this pen as a weapon? He darn right I would. So, you know, am I advocating just going around and flying with nothing more than an iPad? Absolutely not. So please don't think I'm saying this, but I'm trying to sound like a guy who has had a total electrical failure in an airplane. Now the time I had it, there wasn't a cloud in the sky, so it really wasn't an issue. But I was on an IFR flight plan.
22:44
Wally Mulhern
I mean, when I finally got on the ground, I had to call Houston clearance delivery and say, hey man, total electrical failure. We're on the ground, we're all good, so it can happen. And it's a handful.
23:01
Bobby Doss
So let's assume this isn't the worst day ever on the checkride day. And we're still in the early part of this checkride and we're talking about weather. And I've told you I've got an alternate, but I don't have to refile an alternate based on current weather's situation. How much are you going to dive into? All these things I can remember, like really stressing over surface analysis charts and being able to talk about all the icons and legends and tasks and everything. How much are you going to want to talk through that if the weather's good versus a bad weather day or just in general?
23:38
Wally Mulhern
Well, one thing that I am definitely going to dive into is icing conditions and how it would affect our airplane. You know, and for most of us, we don't want to have anything to do with icing conditions in these smaller airplanes. But, you know, we're gonna definitely talk about that and we're gonna talk about whether we have anti icing or de icing equipment on the airplane and you know, that sort of thing. But that's something that I think is absolutely imperative. And, and we're going to talk about that. You know, we are going to talk a little bit about the currency requirements and you know, what do we need to be considered legal to fly ifr and if we don't have it, what are our options?
24:35
Wally Mulhern
You know, everybody's going to tell me six hits and of course it's, you know, six instrument approaches in the last six months, holding, intercepting and tracking. You know, I said, okay, well, it's been seven months. What are your options? And you know, most people are pretty good with this. And I'll say it's been 13 months. What are your options at that point? So, you know, we'll talk about that, we'll talk a little bit about maybe. Okay, can, as an instrument rated pilot, can you fly under basic med? And, and the answer is, yeah, you can. So, you know, that's, that's another aspect to look at. You know, the, we are incorporating more basic med questions in the check rides. So we'll talk about that a little bit.
25:33
Wally Mulhern
But we're going to get into, you know, I'm gonna, I'm probably gonna try to find some bad weather on the chart somewhere, you know, somewhere on the map. And we'll talk about that and we'll look at some charts, we'll talk about the forecast, you know, what we need to look at. And again, the requirements for filing an alternate. And you know what I get a lot of is, you know, I'll say, when is an alternate required to be filed? And people will throw out, oh, it's the 1, 2, 3 rule. Okay, well, great. What's the 1, 2, 3 Rule? A thousand foot ceiling within two hours and three miles visibility. You know, and so they've got the 1, 2, 3, they've learned the little gouge, they learned the acronym, but they really don't know the answer to the question.
26:27
Wally Mulhern
So CFIs, I would encourage you to teach your students the material and then maybe after they've learned the material, then teach them the little, the gouge for remembering it.
26:41
Bobby Doss
So, so you talked about ice. That's a critical one. And I, it was just yesterday, I was scrolling through Facebook or something and some video showed up on my screen of a lady who had lost full control at about 8,000ft. And you could tell she was in full panic and it appeared she had picked up some ice. Right. None of us want to be in that situation in these little airplanes for sure. Something we all need to know and just listening to that breaks your heart. But at around 6,000ft, she got control and things seem to stabilize for her. What about onboard weather? What's in the iPad? Do you, do you critique a lot of that? Do you challenge a lot of that stuff? What's the student's knowledge need to be?
27:27
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, yeah, I do. No, I, I ask about it, you know, and you know, the onboard weather that you typically have on an iPad. You know, I, I just, you know, I want them to know that it's, it's delayed, it's a couple minutes behind. So it's not real time, it's really close and it does a really good job, but it's not, you know, it's not like it's not weather radar.
27:55
Nick Alan
Okay? And that's our show for this week. Join us next time for part two. And remember, as always, stay behind the Prop.
28:03
Speaker 3
Thanks for checking out the behind the Prop podcast. Be sure to click subscribe and check us out online@bravethep.com behind the Prop is recorded in Houston, Texas. Creator and host is Bobby Doss. Co host is Wally Mulhern. The show is for entertainment purposes only and is not meant to replace actual flight instruction. Thanks for listening. And remember, fly safe.