This week we continue our chat with two awesome DPE's! Our own Wally, and special guest Pat Brown. The guys tell us many of the common checkride mistakes they've seen, and how you can avoid them!
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00:01
Wally Mulhern
Clear prop 773 Cherokee number two following. Twin traffic three mile final one trolley.
Bravo makesford in Runway two five going four mile.
00:10
Nick Alan
This is behind the prop with United Flight Systems owner and licensed pilot Bobby Doss and his co host, major airline. Captain and designated pilot examiner Wally Mulhern. Now let's go behind the prop.
00:25
Bobby Doss
What's up Wally?
00:26
Wally Mulhern
Hey Bobby, how are you?
00:28
Bobby Doss
I am fantastic as always. This is part three to common checkride errors. We've recorded part one and part two. A couple weeks ago we released our live at Eastern Kentucky University. Since then Pat has been to fun and son, Wally's been to Hawaii two or three times. And here we are back in Houston, Texas, all remote. Wally happens to be in Denver tonight while we record this part three episode. Pat Brown, welcome back to the show for five, six, seven, eight times now.
01:01
Pat Brown
Thanks for coming again live and direct from Memorial.
01:05
Bobby Doss
There you go. So last couple episodes we talked a lot about private checkride stuff, common errors. Those common errors probably span a number of different types of check rides. But we, in part two we were coming back, landing at the airport, the private checkride was pretty much over. And we're gonna jump right into commercial stuff tonight. So commercial checkride stuff. Let's start with the oral guys. I remember my oral like it was not that long ago because it wasn't. But what, what do you see where commercial applicants maybe struggle or make mistakes in the oral portion of the commercial checkride?
01:51
Wally Mulhern
Let me just start by saying, you know, I think what we have to understand is as commercial applicants we, you know, assuming everything goes well, you're going to get a commercial pilot certificate at the end of the check, right. And you're going to be legal to go out tomorrow and accept money and you know, maybe a private corporation that owns an airplane for which you are, you know, appropriately rated single engine land or you know, could be multi engine land. That's a big deal. That is really a big deal. I mean that is like, you know, a doctor graduated from medical school and them saying, okay doctor, Dr. Brown, you can go out and start injecting people with medicine. You can start cutting them open and taking organs out. You can, you know, you can practice medicine on people now.
02:51
Wally Mulhern
And that's in a sense what we're saying to people is you can go do this professionally and get paid for it. So is the standard higher? It absolutely is and as it should be. So I think people just, I don't know, they're, they're They're a little bit, you know, they, when I might say, okay, that does not meet the standard there, you know, they want to say, well, it's close enough or it was good enough. But, you know, the standard for commercial pilot needs to be pretty high.
03:30
Bobby Doss
Yeah, I would agree. If I'm riding with any of them, I want it to be pretty high.
03:34
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
03:35
Pat Brown
You know, when I don't remember if I told the story in the last couple of common errors things, but if I did, bear with me. We've got maybe different listeners, but I remember doing a, it was a checkride several weeks ago. I don't, honestly don't remember if it was an instrument check ride or it was a commercial check. It was a commercial check ride. And we entered the traffic pattern at West Houston Airport at 1200ft. And the traffic pattern is 1100ft. And I didn't say anything until you got on the downwind. And I finally said, you know, what's the traffic pattern altitude? He says, 1100ft. And I said, well, why are we at 12? He said, well, I just, I feel better at 1200ft. Feel safer. So, okay, I kind of left it at that. And he added this. It's. It's only 100ft. Okay.
04:29
Pat Brown
So I just kind of made a little note of that. And then during the debrief afterwards, I said to him, so let's talk about that downwind leg. You know, when you mentioned about, you know, it's only 100ft. So I thought that was interesting. So, you know, you and I are flying an instrument approaching to West Houston airport. And the MDA flight for the approaches, 560ft. But, you know, I know the terrain pretty good, so I'm just gonna go on down to 460ft. Cause, hey, it's only 100ft. And you can see the light go on in his head like, oh, I get it. So to your point, Wally, the little things count.
05:10
Wally Mulhern
Yeah. Just for the heck of it, next time you get your electric bill, when you pay the bill, short them $10. And just when they call, you just say it's only $10. And let's see what they say.
05:25
Bobby Doss
You won't have lights for long. Right, Wally?
05:27
Wally Mulhern
Right, right.
05:28
Pat Brown
You know, another thing is understanding some of the nuances of the airworthiness of the airplane. You know, in some of the scenarios I use, the. The applicant is flying my personal airplane. I'm not a pilot, but I've hired the applicant to fly my personal airplane on a trip somewhere. And you know, and I'll ask them, well, how, you know, how do you know my airplane is airworthy? And you know, they'll say, well, you know, they'll go through the arrow documents and the various things and I might say something like, okay, but as you're pre flighting, you see that there's a, you know, the fuel placards is missing on the wing. Is the airplane legally airworthy without that fuel placard? And oh boy, you know, now they're struggling.
06:24
Pat Brown
Now they're thinking, well, it's a minimum equipment list or I mean, they're looking all kinds of crazy place, looking at the regs, they're looking at all kinds of crazy places. So where they should be looking in the limitations section to see what the required placards are. So those are, that's one thing that I find is kind of a weakness in really understanding some of the nuances of that. On occasion we'll talk about coming back at night and the landing light burns out and okay, so is the airplane legally airworthy? And they'll say, no, the airplane, no, it's not, because it's for hire. And is it really? Yeah, you're hiring me to fly. Okay, but is the airplane for hire?
07:22
Wally Mulhern
Right.
07:22
Pat Brown
Some of those little nuances and whether or not the airplane requires 100 hour, I mean there's some real nuances as to whether the airplane requires 100 hours, as to whether it's being used for instruction or not for flight instructions. Is there a rental? What if it's a rental but it's not ever being used for flight instruction. It doesn't require 100 hour. So, you know, there's, there are those a lot of that kind of stuff. I see just a lot of, I don't want to use the word ignorance because that's too strong, but certainly unfamiliarity with some of those nuances. Would you agree, Wally?
07:56
Wally Mulhern
I definitely agree with that. And yeah, it's, and it's, it makes some for some very interesting Saturday morning coffee discussion too. It really does. You know, something else I would say, and this is just a bit of advice, what I see quite a few commercial applicants coming in without a valid first or second class medical. They have a third, it's lapsed. Or maybe it's just a third class medical. And that's legal, that's okay, we can take a checkride. You just can't exercise the privileges until you have at least a second class medical. And so I will typically say to the applicant, I say, okay, let's say everything goes well today, we pass the checkride, and Bob calls you up tomorrow and he wants you to hire you to fly his corporate Piper Warrior. Are you legal to do that?
09:01
Wally Mulhern
And most of the people will say, yes, I am. And I'll say, well, okay, based on everything you have in your pocket, you're illegal to do that. And we get into the talk of the medical, and at the end of the checkride, my advice to people is if you're going to be a commercial pilot, have a valid medical. And when I say valid, I mean a second class. And my point is, aviation is a weird industry. You may be sitting around and some guy comes in and says, man, I just bought an airplane up in Seattle. I need someone to go and bring it back for me. I'm willing to pay $500 a day. My flight instructor got sick. We've got, we're booked on a flight tomorrow morning. Who can go with me? And without that medical, you can't do it.
09:55
Wally Mulhern
And I don't know. I, I've never let mine, you know, go back to a third class. So I would say, if you're going to be a commercial pilot, keep that medical up. You just never know.
10:09
Bobby Doss
No question. What, what about, I guess, high altitude oxygen stuff that you might talk about in the oral with a commercial applicant? Do they struggle with that? It's, there's a few nuances. It's probably on every commercial cheat sheet in the world. But what do you all see specific to the oral that maybe commercial applicants struggle with?
10:34
Wally Mulhern
I, actually, I, mine are pretty good. I do ask them about the oxygen requirements. I will, I'll put them in a situation where they're flying for a company that, that has a, whatever airplane we're using on the checklist, on the checkride. And then I'll say, okay, let's say the, the owner of the airplane buys a, a turbocharged Beechcraft Bonanza, which is high performance and complex. And we'll get into what endorsements we need for that. And I'll say, okay, can we fly from here to there at a given altitude? You know, what are the oxygen implications of that? And I actually, I'm pretty impressed with, with the applicants I have. Most of them know it very well.
11:30
Pat Brown
Yeah, I'd say the same thing. I don't have a real problem with that at all.
11:35
Wally Mulhern
All right.
11:36
Bobby Doss
Anything else in the oral that can cause problems that you guys want to talk about?
11:43
Wally Mulhern
I will, I will Say this talking about the oxygen thing. If you, the listeners want to watch a pretty funny video on YouTube. If you Google David Letterman Tom Cruise airplane story, it's about a five minute video where David Letterman is interviewing Tom Cruise and they don't talk about airplanes until about two minutes into it. So you got to bear with it. But it's just, just do that. Just Google or go to YouTube and put in David Letterman Tom Cruise airplane story. It's pretty funny.
12:18
Bobby Doss
It is funny for sure.
12:20
Pat Brown
I'm making note of that.
12:22
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, yeah.
12:24
Bobby Doss
So we go from the oral like we do in all these check rides. We've obviously checked the weather. We're going out to the aircraft, we start the aircraft, we're heading to wherever we're going to go. And it's time to work on some maneuvers. Let's talk about the specific maneuvers. We've talked about the private stuff and I would assume all things are equal from a private check ride. Steep turns, all those things. Still, the common errors exist for commercial pilots. Maybe the standards are slightly different, but those things still apply. Let's talk about the specific maneuvers to commercial. And I'm going to assume. I think I did a Shondell first. Let's talk Shondell's.
13:07
Pat Brown
All right, Wally, you want to take a shot at first?
13:09
Wally Mulhern
Well, well, let me go back before we even get to that. I don't know how other people do it, but there is still on the commercial, in the commercial ACs, there is a cross country phase to the checkride, if you will. And some I, There might be a deficiency in flight instructing. There might be, I don't know. But, but a lot of people, you know, of course I give them a cross country and when I say, okay, we're going to actually go out and fly this cross country, they look at me like I got, you know, things growing out of my ears. I go, really? We're not just going to go out and do maneuvers. No, absolutely. We're going to, we're going to do the commercial phase of it. And it is.
13:59
Bobby Doss
You mean, Wally, we're going all the way to Colorado? Come on, man.
14:03
Wally Mulhern
No, no.
14:04
Pat Brown
Okay.
14:05
Wally Mulhern
And we're going to use pilotage and we're going to use, you know, we're gonna use those pre. Computed headings and times that you came up with. And. Yeah, I mean, is it realistic because most of the time the applicant is instrument rated. Is it realistic that they're going to fly a 2, 3400 mile flight VFR, probably not. Okay. I would, I would think most people would file IFR and go. But this is part of the acs and I think a lot of flight instructors, when they get a commercial applicant, they just kind of think they just assume that the applicant is proficient in that area. Might be something worth dusting the cobwebs off of.
15:00
Pat Brown
That's a good point. And as you were talking about that, it also brought up the idea, are we using Foreflight or some device like that, or are we using paper? And while actually I prefer to see somebody bring paper to the checkride just because personally for me it's easier to lay out the charts and kind of get the big picture and you can talk about the trip in total, but if they come with foreflight instead of paper charts, that's fine. It's perfectly okay. It's perfectly legal. But I'm going to start peppering them with some questions about foreflight at this point. In other words, how did you come up with the course, the heading that you're going to be flying, the magnetic heading that you're going to be flying? How is that calculated in foreflight? What's included? What's not? Is wind included? Is it not?
15:52
Pat Brown
And you know, if wind is included, how do we take wind out of the picture? And there's ways to do that. But you know, how much do they understand about Foreflight and the way those numbers are calculated? That tells you a lot right there.
16:11
Bobby Doss
No question. And that did get me in the my commercial. From a standpoint of a better conversation, I was able to answer the questions, but it really did. You know, when did I create that flight plan that I printed out? And were the winds based on forecasted winds, current winds, etc. And you really need to understand that if you're going to use those headings for your compass in case of something else failing for sure, you need to know that.
16:39
Pat Brown
Yeah, exactly. You can rest assured those questions are going to be in the oral. If you come and you're using Foreflight for the oral portion of the cross country discussion in the oral. Right.
16:54
Bobby Doss
So let's talk Shondell's. I think. I don't remember if I said it to you, Wally, or someone else, but I think a trick that someone told me was always do your left Shondell first. Left turning tendencies will always help you. Do you guys make a person turn one way or the other? You let them always pick. What's your motive, operandis For Shondell's. And is there a common mistake that applicants need to be aware of?
17:24
Wally Mulhern
I let, I let them pick and I don't know if I've ever had anybody done it or right.
17:32
Bobby Doss
Surprise.
17:34
Pat Brown
Yeah, I'd say the same thing. I don't, I don't really care whether they go left or right, but typically speaking, they'll go left first. It's easier, no question.
17:46
Wally Mulhern
Yeah. And it is a performance maneuver. So we are trying to get some performance. So.
17:54
Pat Brown
Yeah. But you know, as far as common mistakes, I mean they're probably pretty intuitive as far as what you might expect. Pitching up too much to begin with, realizing that they've done so as they're rolling out of the maneuver. At which point it's supposed to be a constant pitch changing bank maneuver and the lowering the nose because they're afraid they're going to stall before they get to the 180 degree mark. That's a big one right there, right?
18:31
Bobby Doss
Yeah. I don't remember having a lot of trouble with Shondell's, but I think once I learned the maneuver and understood really what were trying to accomplish. It's a math equation. Right. You're trying to get to a certain point in a certain part of the turn. And if you do that, then you're probably going to be fairly successful in that maneuver.
18:50
Pat Brown
Waiting too late to start your rollout and then being a little bit too aggressive on trying to roll out. I see that sometimes, but I mean, generally speaking, the applicants do the Shondell's reasonably well.
19:09
Bobby Doss
Okay.
19:10
Wally Mulhern
And the other thing is really is a visual maneuver. You know, this isn't an IFR maneuver where you just head inside. And so I don't know, I, I would say on this maneuver maybe you ought to be 80% out, 20% in, you know, just. I don't know. That's just. There's nothing in the ACS that says how much. But you know, you ought to be looking outside.
19:42
Bobby Doss
The other way around would definitely be wrong. 80 in and 20 out.
19:45
Pat Brown
Right.
19:45
Bobby Doss
I mean you're definitely looking out. You definitely have to see something.
19:49
Pat Brown
Yeah.
19:50
Bobby Doss
The next one, the next commercial maneuver that I think of is lazy eights. And I, I've said this many times about being a multi engine applicant and passing that and feeling like a real pilot When I became a multi engine pilot. But I remember when I really felt the plane and myself doing good lazy eights, I felt like, man, this all just kind of clicks like, finally I got it. I know what the plane wants to do. I know what it's supposed to feel like. But I'm sure you guys have been on some crazy lazy eights. Not quite so smooth, I should say.
20:27
Pat Brown
Crazy eight.
20:28
Bobby Doss
Yeah. Crazy.
20:29
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
20:30
Pat Brown
Yeah. When I was, you know, when I was doing my commercial training and this is back in the dark ages when you could actually use a Cessna 150 to do it and you didn't need any, I didn't need any complex or high performance time. It was basically a wingover. Yeah, basically a wing over. I mean, and when we're Talking about a 60 degree bank, that was the way I was taught to do lazy eights.
20:59
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
20:59
Pat Brown
And then, you know, of course, now. And the thing about it is the problem with the acs in my view with lazy eights is that doesn't adequately describe really what that maneuver should look like. It says, you know, approximately a 30 degree bank at the steepest. And okay, approximately 30 degrees, 45 degrees is not approximately 30. So we can, I think we can agree on that. But it doesn't really talk about the pitch angle at that first 45, which really ought to bring you down within. I don't know, what would you say, 5 to 10 knots of stall anyway, to have the appropriate pitch angle so that the airplane actually kind of just falls through the Horizon at the 90 degree mark on its own.
21:57
Pat Brown
But all too often I see, you know, just a, maybe a 15 degree pitch up or something like that. And then of course, we don't lose enough airspeed and the applicant ends up driving the airplane through the maneuver. And so did they do the, did they do what was described in the acs? Yeah, but is it really what that maneuver is supposed to look like? Not really. And I attribute that basically just to babies teaching babies.
22:27
Wally Mulhern
Right.
22:28
Pat Brown
And just that, you know, I learned it to do, I learned to do it that way because that's the way my instructor learned how to do it. And the instructor does it that way because that's the way he was taught how to do it. And then she was taught, you know, and it just, it's just babies teaching babies. And so this is where I really wish, as dpes, were allowed to engage in some form of flight instruction after the applicant has demonstrated the maneuver, either successfully or otherwise, but because we just don't have a chance to fix those mistakes. And it's hard to describe those things when you're sitting on the ground and. And kind of make them see what it is that. That they're doing wrong, because according to the acs, they're not really doing it wrong, but it's not right. Right.
23:20
Wally Mulhern
Right. Yeah.
23:23
Bobby Doss
Sorry. While my instructor, his name was Travis, and did all my commercial maneuver stuff, and it was one of his demonstrations where I think I really felt the plane for the first time really fall, but not be afraid. Afraid that it was falling through that 90 degree point. Right. And then it. You could almost hear the wind. You could hear the plane kind of cutting through the air. And I just felt like this was really the first time that I really felt. I felt and knew what it was supposed to feel like. I felt knew what the maneuver was supposed to do, and then I could repeat that.
23:58
Bobby Doss
And maybe that's part of what you're saying, Pat, is that maybe kids teaching kids or children teaching children, that there's something that's missed if it's not taught the right way, but really is my favorite maneuver now from that standpoint, because when you do it right, it is almost like a dance. It is.
24:16
Pat Brown
It's a ballet. It's a beautiful maneuver when it's done properly.
24:20
Wally Mulhern
And the operative word in the name of the maneuver is lazy. Lazy. And. And I'll. I'll tell on myself. It was probably nine years ago. I was getting a. Basically a check ride with the FAA to become a dpe, and this is one of the maneuvers we did was lazy eights. And. And. And the FAA guy said. He said, let. Let's see if you can make it lazier. And I went, oh, yeah, okay. And then he goes, yeah, that's it. And. And. Oh, geez, we ought to call these things lazy eights. Oh, wait a minute. We do call them lazy eights.
25:00
Pat Brown
So.
25:00
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, it's just a nice. Yeah, they're. They're fun to do.
25:05
Pat Brown
Yeah, I like them, too.
25:08
Bobby Doss
Next big one. Sometimes confused because it also has an 8 in it. Eights on pylons, man. Pivotal altitude. All kinds of crazy stuff we got to learn and know. And, boy, this one's. This one's probably the hard one. I don't know. Y' all tell me this one is the one. I assume people struggle with this in the next one, probably, but let's start with this one. Eight on pylons. What do y' all see if.
25:32
Pat Brown
Well, I mean, if they understand the purpose of the maneuver, then I don't think they struggle quite as much. One of the things that I'll ask them is, you know, what's our pivotal altitude? And almost to a person, they pull out this nicely prepared chart. You know, if it's 90 knots, it's this and it's 100 knots, it's that. And I said, well, but how do we, how did we do? How do we come up with that number and what's the formula? And they should know that, you know, it's, I mean, you might consider it a piece of trivia, but they should know that. And you know, if the riot's going reasonably well and they don't know the formula, I'm not going to bust them for it. But it will certainly be a part of the debrief.
26:16
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, yeah.
26:18
Bobby Doss
What about picking points? Is picking points something? You see? People, I mean, I've heard crazy stories. We're all familiar with probably the west practice area in this part of Houston. But, you know, there's a glider port out there. Like the glider port could, should not be one of your pylons, of course. Right. But I mean, there's probably some bad choices, I assume.
26:40
Wally Mulhern
Well, I would, I will say this. I have flown halfway to Dallas looking for the two perfect points on checkrides. And so what I'd like to people see people do is pick one point, start the maneuver, and when they roll out, look the other way. And you're gonna find something. There will be something out there, you.
27:04
Bobby Doss
Know, the 25, 000 hour pilot. I mean, come on, that's a little stretch for someone, but I.
27:11
Wally Mulhern
Think, I don't think so.
27:12
Pat Brown
I don't think I saw at all.
27:13
Bobby Doss
Good, good challenge then for sure.
27:16
Wally Mulhern
I think we've all, you know, okay, those two, no, they're too close or, or even, you know, after they picked two, they may roll out and realize that second point was too far away or too close. It's, it's not ideal. And you know, a lot of times they'll say, I'm going to change it to the blue House. Okay.
27:36
Pat Brown
All right.
27:37
Wally Mulhern
But you know, just as I say, just roll out and something will find you. There's going to be something out there.
27:45
Pat Brown
You're absolutely right, Wally. And like you, I've, you know, probably flown halfway to Mexico looking for a point. But I had an applicant one time start the lazy eights on the right turn, figuring that it would be easier to find a point off the left wing when they're at roll wings level. And I never thought about that. And there's nothing in the acs that says that they have to start with a left turn. So, so I thought, you know something, that's really smart because finding that point off the right wing, sometimes it can be a challenge. But boy, when you roll wings level and you'd look off your left wing and as you said, there will be something there. It might be a clump of grass, it might be a corner of a ditch, it might be a cow.
28:40
Pat Brown
And I tell, I don't care if it's a cow, as long as the cow is not walking, it makes no difference to me. And the other. But beyond that, the errors that I see are kind of, I guess, generic in nature. And that is not anticipating what's coming based on where the wind is coming from. And so they're flying the maneuver in more of a reactive way than a proactive way, if that makes sense. They wait till they see that motion happening on the wing before they push or pull, when, if they really understand where the wind is coming from or reasonably sure where the wind is coming from. And today with some of these glass cockpits that have the wind vector displayed right there.
29:28
Pat Brown
But anyway, if they're reasonably sure where the wind is coming from, then they should start anticipating that they're going to have to start pulling or pushing at some point and start doing that, you know, kind of almost. Well, really just anticipating what's coming and doing it in advance rather than being reactive, if that makes any sense.
29:49
Wally Mulhern
Right, right. You know, with all of these maneuvers, you know, probably the first thing is clear the area. Yeah, and I like to use the phrase clear the area rather than clearing turns, because I think when we say clearing turns, we go out there and we do two 90 degree turns. Looking at the instruments, all purpose is to look outside. So, so I, I try to say let's, you know, if I'm instructing, I always say let's clear the area. The way we do that is with clearing turns.
30:24
Pat Brown
Yeah, good point.
30:26
Bobby Doss
This could be a tough question for you, but I'll ask because I'm sure the listeners wonder, is this a maneuver where people fail checkrides on, is this the hard one? Is this the tough one? Is this where the weaknesses are shown?
30:39
Pat Brown
Well.
30:42
Wally Mulhern
I, I, I have put eight some pylons on a notice of disapproval. I have, I can't say that if everything is great. And I can't say this, you know, if you don't meet the standard. But usually if they're having trouble with this, they're having trouble with other things.
31:12
Pat Brown
Gotcha. Yeah, I'd say the same thing. It's rare that the aits on pylons alone will be on the notice of disapproval, but I have called a disapproval based solely on the aison pylons if they're horrible enough.
31:38
Wally Mulhern
Right.
31:39
Bobby Doss
Makes sense. Let's talk about the one I. I'll brat myself out. I think I stuggle struggled with steep spirals. I did a lot of my commercial stuff in an arrow. It was like a lawn dart. Obviously, it was hard to, you know, hard to make all those turns and not lose all that altitude.
32:01
Wally Mulhern
So.
32:01
Bobby Doss
So I think this is just one where I think you're really learning how. How good you have to be at controlling the aircraft in your commercial training. And probably one, I assume again with a, With a little bit of wind is something where pilots that aren't really good at their task probably struggle. What are your thoughts on steep spirals?
32:25
Pat Brown
Well, first of all, let me ask you about that arrow. What'd you have to do, start at like 12,000ft or something like that?
32:31
Bobby Doss
Like that? No, I had to like turn it 80 degrees of bank just so I get three laps, three circles in. But yeah, it was a lawn dart. There's no question it was tough.
32:40
Pat Brown
Go ahead, Wally. You start. You screw it with this one.
32:42
Wally Mulhern
No, and I, I would say this is probably a maneuver that the applicants probably haven't done this very much. And just from the standpoint is you get to get. You got to get pretty high. And at least where we are in the sun, it's usually hot. And especially in the summer, it takes a long time to get up there. So I think maybe we overlook this one.
33:11
Pat Brown
Yeah, I think you're right. And it's. Not only does it take a long time to get up there, you may well not be able to get up there, depending on the altitude that's necessary. I mean, I don't know if I remember right. Somewhere on 4000ft, 4500ft. If you're really going to make three full 360s.
33:30
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
33:30
Pat Brown
Level off above 1500ft, you're gonna have to be at 3, 500, 4000, 4500ft, depending on the airplane. And if it's in the arrow, it's probably closer to 6. I mean, I was joking with the 12. 12,000, but. But you probably got to be a 6 with the arrow, and that's awfully hard to down in this part of the country sometimes.
33:53
Bobby Doss
No question. Is it, is it the wind is it the turning, Is it the. That I got to do three of those laps? Where do you see the struggles for applicants come in? I know I'm making it very general, but you guys have sat in that seat a lot. What do you see people struggle with on this maneuver?
34:13
Pat Brown
Pick it. Picking a point is one. And the biggest mistake that they make is treating it like, say, like a turn about a point. In other words, picking a point that might be, you know, halfway out the wing or something like that. Well, if the point, from your perspective, if you're at 4,000 or 5,000ft, that point is halfway out the wing, then that point is probably, I don't know, four or five miles away from you. Yeah. So what you have to do is you actually have to kind of get your forehead up against the side glass on the airplane and look straight down. And that's going to be your point. Yeah, I mean, literally straight down. Right.
34:58
Pat Brown
And, you know, I actually, Wally, I was talking to one of our fellow examiners a number of years ago because I was having fits trying to teach people this particular maneuver. And he gave me a piece of advice which I have held to ever since and found that was so helpful. But that was either to fight, like to find an airport, for example, sport flyers. That's probably not a good example. It's too close to class Bravo. But like fairweather, someplace like that, and actually fly a downwind leg with the airport directly below you. I mean, looking straight down at it, and almost treated the steep spiral as you would treat a downwind cross, a downwind base, upwind, crosswind, downwind base, upwind, crosswind, as you're circling down over the airport.
35:55
Pat Brown
In other words, almost treat it like you're making an emergency descent to the airport, which is really what that maneuver is.
36:01
Bobby Doss
Right.
36:02
Pat Brown
And so, but what I found is if you can't find an airport, then find a tree line or find a long ditch or something like that you can kind of imagine is an airport, and then just fly a regular traffic pattern around it, because the ACS says that you got to bury the bank according to the wind. So nowhere does it say it has to be a perfect circle. It simply says you had. Because if you're burying the bank according to wind, it's not necessarily going to be a perfect circle anyway. And how are we going to know if it's a perfect circle? One or four thousand feet? So, you know, that's a. That's kind of a hack that one of our fellow examiners told me about years and Years ago that I found was really helpful. Steep spirals.
36:46
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, that's good.
36:48
Bobby Doss
Very interesting.
36:49
Wally Mulhern
I like that.
36:49
Pat Brown
Wally.
36:50
Bobby Doss
What.
36:50
Pat Brown
I mean, what are your thoughts?
36:52
Wally Mulhern
No, I agree with every. Everything he said. And now I want to go out and try that, that traffic pattern thing that you just talked about. I'd never heard that. But that's good.
37:03
Bobby Doss
Like the other episodes, this one has gotten long as well. And we're gonna have to come back and do instrument later on. But let's make the last one the, but the final one. How about the power off 180s? I'm sure you've never had an applicant not complete the power off 180. What are the big mistakes? What, what can we do to share some tips and tricks to help those future applicants out there better at power off 180s.
37:29
Pat Brown
Strikes fear in their hearts, doesn't it?
37:32
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
37:32
Pat Brown
What do you say, Wally?
37:34
Wally Mulhern
Well, I do not do the power off 180 early in the landing phase. So I let the applicant kind of get their feet wet with where's the wind coming from? You know, we're going to do a short field landing before we do a power off 180. And you know, almost treat the short field landing sort of like a power off 180, but you know, you get a, you do, you know, you do have the ability to add power and even go around on the short field landing, but use that as your measuring stick also, you know, you got, you probably not a good idea to do your check ride in 20 knots a headwind when you've never practiced this maneuver in 20 knots ahead wind. So, so use some, you know, use some common sense with this.
38:43
Pat Brown
Yeah. You know, it's oftentimes I wonder if instructors are teaching their applicants about an aiming point versus the touchdown point too. Yeah.
38:57
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
38:57
Pat Brown
Because if you can, you know, there's lots of ways you can lose altitude, not too many ways you can gain it when you're at idle. But if you can roll out on final and then kind of adjust your glide path by whatever means is necessary. Because the ACS doesn't say specifically. They just say you've got to land on or no more than 200ft beyond your spot to keep an aiming point, which of course we know is going to before the touchdown point stationary in the windscreen. And if you have a fairly good idea of how far the airplane is going to float before it touches down, then this maneuver becomes infinitely easier to do. And you know, I took your advice early on in my DPE career. Wally. And the power of 180 is the very last landing we do.
39:55
Pat Brown
The very last landing we do. And I'll tell them so we'll do the one power of 180 at the end. Give you a little chance to kind of get a feel for the wind. And almost none of them take real advantage of those three opportunities. Short field, soft field and a normal landing to get it. Get a feel for what that wind is doing to them. And so it just, it makes the power of 180 almost a crapshoot. Yeah. And it's, and it's really too bad because you're giving them, basically you're giving them three chances to figure out. To figure out what it is.
40:35
Pat Brown
And the thing, you know, Wally, you said earlier about on a soft field or a short field landing, you know, you can go around and that you can't do it an unlimited number of times, but you certainly go around because the ACS says, recognizes the. I don't remember the wording, but it's something about recognizing that things aren't going well and execute. So go around if necessary. So the ACS acknowledges that you can make a go around. Again, it's not an unlimited number, but you can go around that phrase. That wording is missing or it's not missing, it's omitted intentionally. On the power off 180. It's a one and done maneuver. But the question is, what happens if a flock of birds flies up in front of us?
41:20
Pat Brown
What happens if somebody, there's a Runway incursion or a repair truck gets out on the Runway or something that's beyond the applicant's control. Truly beyond the applicant's control happens. And our guidance tells us that we can allow them to do it again if it's a safety of flight issue. If there's a safe. If the safety of the landing area becomes in question and it's something that the applicant didn't do himself or herself, then we can allow them to do it again. But, but that doesn't mean, okay, I misjudged the wind and I'm 1,000ft short of, you know, my touchdown point because I misjudged the wind. That's something that the applicant did and demonstrates a lack of mastery of the aircraft. It's not some birds flying. I'll give you actually a perfect example of something that happened just a few weeks ago.
42:23
Pat Brown
It's a commercial ride and it's going great. I mean, it's going great. And we're in left hand Traffic to Runway 17 right at hooks. And he asked for a short approach. And the guy said, I can't let you do the short approach because we've got incoming traffic or whatever. And, well, okay, could we have a 360 on the downwind leg? Sure. So he gave us a 360. And as we rolled out on the 360 at about midfield, the guy, the tower operator, said, turn left, cross the Runway and enter a right downwind. Cleared for the short approach. Well, by the time he got across the Runway and wings level, were past abeam the numbers. And he pulled the throttle back and he said, this isn't going to work. And I let him do it again. Why?
43:20
Pat Brown
Because the tower put him in a position that this couldn't possibly be successful. Not his fault. Now we can't. We made a low approach and came around, did it again. Unfortunately, he was about 100ft short. And, you know, and I don't care how good the check ride went. The check ride could have been. On a scale of 1 to 10, it could have been a 12. But he's 100ft short on his. Short on his power up 180. And yeah, I'm sorry, you know, and he knew it. And it was just that. But there's an example, a real world example of what? You know, when we can let them do that again. But otherwise it's a one and done deal.
43:58
Wally Mulhern
Right? Right.
44:00
Pat Brown
Yeah.
44:00
Bobby Doss
I just wonder if now people are gonna have their friends stay out next to the Runway in a golf cart or something to run out there if they're a little high or a little low. Because. Because Pat said just. If I'm kidding, don't do that. No matter where you're at, don't do that at Hooks.
44:14
Wally Mulhern
We'll use the turtle excuse. There was a turtle on the Runway.
44:19
Bobby Doss
Or a water moccasin. One of the two. On either one of my one hit either one of them. Well, gentlemen, as always, it's a lot of fun. This is part three of now what will be a part four series. Because we're gonna do instrument. I don't care how long it takes, we'll circle back and do instrument checkrides as well. Common errors on instrument checkrides in the coming week or two. Pat, as always, thanks for joining the show. Wally, get some rest in Denver and enjoy your Hawaii trip. I know it's work, but it sure sounds fun. You have a little shopping trip to do for me. I hope you knock that out as well while you're out there. And as always, everyone fly safely and stay behind the prop.
45:03
Nick Alan
Thanks for checking out the behind the Prop podcast. Be sure to click subscribe and check us out online@bravetheprop.com behind the Prop is.
Recorded in Houston, Texas.
Creator and host is Bobby Doss.
Co host is Wally Mulhern.
The show is for entertainment purposes only.
And is not meant to replace actual flight instruction.
Thanks for listening and remember, fly safe.