This week's show features two awesome DPE's! Our own Wally, and special guest Pat Brown. The guys tell us many of the common checkride mistakes they've seen, and how you can avoid them!
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00:01
Behind the Prop Intro
Clear prop 773, shankee number two following.Twin traffic three mile final one trolley bravo makesford in Runway two five going four mile.
00:10
Nick Alan
This is behind the prop with United Flight Systems owner and licensed pilot Bobby Doss and his co host, major airline captain and designated pilot examiner Wally Mulhern. Now let's go behind the prop.
00:24
Bobby Doss
What's up Wally?
00:25
Wally Mulhern
Hey Bobby, how are you?
00:26
Bobby Doss
I am fantastic as always. This week we are going to record what I'm going to assume will be a very popular show. And that actually will be shows because we're going to do a two part series starting today with a returning guest to the show, Pat Brown.
00:43
Pat Brown
Hey Bobby. Hey Wally.
00:45
Bobby Doss
So Pat Brown has been on the show at least three other times we are aware of. So it was at least this fourth appearance. We've done live shows together, we've done many different topics and this topic we're gonna take. They're gonna wear DP hats today, both Wally and Pat or DPs in the Greater Houston area. And they're busy as can be like all the other dps around the world. And they had a little break today because of bad weather. So we're gonna knock out this show and we're gonna talk about common errors on checkrides. In this first episode we're gonna talk a little bit about the preparation, the oral and focus on private.
01:22
Bobby Doss
And then when we reconvene next Monday, we'll talk about things that are more commercial instrument and some other topics that maybe keep happening on checkrides for both Wally and Pat that they want to see stop happening. What made you think about, I mean, you sent the idea, Pat. I love the idea. What, what made you think about this? I'm gonna assume a mistake on the checkride.
01:43
Pat Brown
Well, yeah, I mean it's like, you know what starts the idea for anything is if somebody screws something up and I got, I got to a few weeks ago, I just see these things over and over like you do, Wally. And over and over again. And to the point where I actually wrote a little document on common errors. It's on my website for private and commercial. I haven't done the instrument yet but. But it will get there. Just hoping that some of these applicants that call me for checkrides, they'll read it. And I mean it. I mean I can't fly the checkride for them. I can't teach in the airplane. As much as much as we're at heart, we're CFIs we can't teach in the airplane. We have to obs.
02:26
Pat Brown
And it really, it's when you have to sit there and watch something go off the rails, boy, I tell you, it's tough. It's tough. So if we can kind of prepare them better for what happens just day after day that we see all the time, perhaps that will help some.
02:43
Bobby Doss
And just in case we have people listening to us all over the world. What's that, what is that website that document?
02:49
Pat Brown
It's www.houstondpe.com Houston DP.com awesome.
02:55
Bobby Doss
So if you want to see that document and future documents, Pat has a lot of resources out there, has all of the things he's ever participated in, I think from podcasts, webinars, including these. Including these. So feel free to go check out that website and grab that document as well. So as a flight school owner and even today I deal with a lot of these common errors as well. Right. We were working on someone who was late this morning, someone who didn't have some things done this morning, who needed to be re endorsed. It happens, right? We're not expecting necessary perfection, but we definitely want to reduce these common errors. And because today was all about preparation, let's start there. What, what are some of the big common errors that you guys both feel happen in the preparation phase?
03:42
Bobby Doss
When I say preparation, I mean 24, 48 hours before they get to a checkride. What are, what are applicants repetitively not doing right to set themselves up for that checkride?
03:55
Wally Mulhern
Some of the things I see, and this is not new stuff. This is, if you go back and list a previous podcast, if my applicants would actually sounds like I'm going to be a little sarcastic, but if they had actually read the letter that they get, you know, about my checkrides, they would understand, they would fix this before it happens.
04:20
Bobby Doss
Is there an audible version of that? I'm just kidding.
04:23
Wally Mulhern
Not yet. But one thing I see a lot is blog book pages that are not signed. So if we've got entries in there and there's their cross country time and you know, until that page is signed, it's not a legal document. If I went and bought a, an item from somebody and gave them a check and didn't sign the check, I think they, before I walked out the door with whatever I bought, they would say, hey, you need to sign this check.
04:53
Bobby Doss
You could be dating yourself. I'm not sure. Too many.
04:56
Wally Mulhern
Well, I know. I Know, I agree.
05:00
Bobby Doss
Sorry for that example.
05:02
Wally Mulhern
But until that logbook is, it's just like the IACRA application. Until we go in there and electronically sign it's, we haven't started. So I, I sit there for, you know, many minutes of my life, I've sat in the checkride room while applicants go in and sign sometimes their entire logbook. And you know, for a private, it's usually at most maybe 10 pages. So it's not a huge deal. But I see that, I also see just the inability to log into Iacra. And so that is something that I suggest is that you log into IACRA the day of the checkride, not the day before the checkride, but the day of the checkride. Because at some, whatever the, the point is to where you have to change your Iacra password.
05:52
Wally Mulhern
I don't know how many days it is, but at some point it's gonna expire and you're not gonna be able to log in. And what I see is the applicant, the stress level in the applicant going up. Now, I'm not upset about it. Yeah, it's gonna take another two minutes. But I watch this applicant just start to sweat and they're, you know, and I'm, then I have to be a psychologist and say, hey, it's okay, it's okay, don't worry about it. We're going to get through this. Today a young man came in for a check ride, a multi engine check ride, and he had been endorsed. He actually pointed out in his logbook that he had two endorsements for the checkride because the first one was more than 60 days old. But guess what?
06:44
Wally Mulhern
They forgot to go in and do a new IACRA application. So when I went in to go get in, I couldn't even access the application. It won't even let us access. It'll say the recommending instructors signature is more than 60 days old. So he had to go fill out an entirely new application. And he was, he, you know, again, I'm, I was being the babysitter, saying, it's okay, it's all right, don't worry about it.
07:12
Pat Brown
You know, another thing that'll happen on iacra, and this is, I don't know how common this is, although I've had it happen four or five times, is when you have a discontinuance and for whatever reason, perhaps the application was signed, you know, some weeks ago. And of course it Takes time to schedule our time. And now you have a discontinuance. And now you come back to finish the discontinuance. And now the signature is 60 days past. 60 days old. And I don't know about you, Wally, but I typically don't look at the IACRA form before we do a discontinuance because it's just, it's kind of in a holding pattern for now. And then you log into IACRA and see the big red letters that says the signature is over 60 days old. We can't process anymore.
07:56
Pat Brown
So now it's a mad scramble to find the CFI because we got to do another Iacra so that we can finish the check ride out. So that is, that's, perhaps that's not a common error, but it happens enough that it's something that applicants should be aware of, that they're, that they've got a current enough IACRA form. The other thing too, on. I see you want to say something.
08:17
Bobby Doss
But just say, you know what, I'm trying to sit in here as a student pilot, right? I'm a private applicant. If this has happened, I don't think in the old days when I did that, I would have thought that was my responsibility. I would have thought that was my flight instructor to responsibility. Now I own a flight school and a lot of CFIs work for me. And I'm sitting here thinking, you know, the applicant really should know this. I think we've gotten to a point maybe where we've over rotated. I don't know if it's society or not, but we've over rotated and I'm expecting someone else to solve all this.
08:49
Pat Brown
For me or take care of it. This is, this is the applicants.
08:51
Bobby Doss
I'm the pilot in command. You're the PI to know that I got 60 days.
08:55
Pat Brown
Yeah. The other thing about, the other thing about IACRA is when you're signing in is three times and you're out, if you mess up three times in your password, your username may lock you out. And now you've got to call the help desk and they'll have to reset the password. And that could take anywhere between 20 seconds and 20 minutes to get the credentials to log back in again. So what I recommend oftentimes is, you know, if you have an iPad or an iPhone or android device and you've got IACRA on it, and you have Iacra, your password and username saved to that device where you can just log in, it Automatically populates like it does on mine, for example.
09:35
Pat Brown
That eliminates a big problem because oftentimes with iPads or any Android device, you know, sometimes you have to drag, you know, touch and drag in order to get the other character to populate or whatever. And if you don't do that. Quite right. Well, all of a sudden now you've missed a login opportunity and that's strike one. And then what happens is exactly what you said, Wally. You can watch the stress levels just start ratchet up and up.
10:06
Bobby Doss
And for some of you listening that are maybe going to take your first checkride, you think you've logged into IACRA with your CFI and you've done this work, there's a requirement that in the room where you're meeting the dp, you're going to log in and sign to say we're starting the checkride. So you have to, you, no matter what you think, you do have one more attempt that you have to log in that room with your designated pile examiner.
10:28
Pat Brown
And you know, the other thing about, you mentioned about signing the logbooks, Wally. The other thing that I see really way more frequently than I should is that the log books are all written in pencil or total up in pencil. As you said, it's a legal document, so maybe you're signing the page ink, but if everything is in pencil, that can still be changed.
10:47
Wally Mulhern
You know, I actually asked the FAA about that because I agree with you 1,000%, Pat, it ought to be ink. But I, I asked my managing specialist about that if it was a requirement, and he said there is no requirement for the totals to be ink.
11:08
Pat Brown
Interesting.
11:08
Wally Mulhern
Which I think is really strange.
11:13
Bobby Doss
Well, and I'll say, really, I was taught to do it in pencil in case I made a mathematical.
11:18
Pat Brown
Well, that makes sense. But you can erase and, you know, replace an ink at the end of the, at the end of the.
11:25
Bobby Doss
We do sell green, white out. Just in case everybody. Yeah, I guess we sell green out. Not green, white out, green. Yeah, it is a real thing. But. Yeah, yeah, very interesting. For sure.
11:35
Pat Brown
Well, I'm still going to make a mention to them that this is the legal document. It really probably ought to be ink.
11:41
Wally Mulhern
I, I agree.
11:42
Bobby Doss
So we've talked about this and I didn't have a chance to look up the numbers, but likelihood of passing or not being successful if I don't fly the week before, like, what's the thought process?
11:54
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, there is, there is some data on that and I don't have it. It. I, I read an article from NAFI which is a national association of flight instructors, and they were able to determine. I want to say. Well, I'm not even going to say what the numbers are, but it's significant.
12:13
Bobby Doss
If not, would you say more likely?
12:16
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, yeah, I'm not. If you don't fly within a week of the check ride. And, and where I think we see this maybe is more with maybe discontinuances. You do the ground and the weather isn't cooperating, so you don't do the flight and you say, okay, I can get you in 10 days. And then the applicant comes back. In fact, I just had one a few weeks ago and it was an instrument discontinuance, I believe. And he just, he seemed very rusty and he passed. But it was a struggle. And I came in and I, I said, I'm just gonna throw this out there. I said, if I were a betting man, which I'm not, but if I were, I would bet that you have not touched an airplane since a week ago. Since were, you know, we did the ground 10 days ago.
13:16
Wally Mulhern
And he said, you're exactly right. And I said, well, instrument flying is a. I say it's a very erodible skill. It erodes in a hurry, especially when you're inexperienced. And 40 hours of instrument time, in my opinion, is inexperienced. So you lose it in a hurry.
13:36
Bobby Doss
Yeah, no question. I, I don't think it's a requirement. I don't, I don't think it's something we would ever expect to see. But if you're not a good stick and rudder person, you probably should fly a few days before you check.
13:46
Wally Mulhern
Right?
13:47
Pat Brown
For sure.
13:47
Bobby Doss
It's a pretty big day. Let's talk a little bit about the oral. What's some of the common errors? And not that I always miss weather theory questions, but what mistakes do. Do applicants make? What common errors do they make in the oral? Gosh, the list is so long for Mr. Brown.
14:06
Pat Brown
Well, I mean, I'm trying to figure out how to answer that without you know, necessarily saying, you know, when I asked this question, this is. Or when I present this scenario. I mean, not that any of this stuff is real secret because you know as well as I do that there's gouges on Wally and there's gouges on me and there's gouges on.
14:26
Bobby Doss
I might have seen one of those.
14:27
Pat Brown
I'm sure you have I'm sure. And the funny thing about it is, oftentimes I can tell during the oral, which is okay, because at the end of the day, most of the time, the busts occur in the flight because they got to go fly. You know, they might be able to study, you know, every single question scenario that I'm gonna do or you, Wally, or anybody else, and have it down to the point where we're done with the oral in 45 minutes. And that's an exact. That's a real exaggeration. But, but. But they still got to fly the airplane. So I, you know, I don't care all that much about the gouges because I did it when I was cfi. We all did it. But. But really, for me, it's more about the actual preparation for the paperwork. Preparation that.
15:17
Pat Brown
And as we talked about before we started recording, is answering more than was asked of you being uncomfortable with a silence after you've answered a question or completed your answer or what have you. And when the DPE stays quiet, it's like, well, he must be wanting me to talk more. So then all of a sudden, they feel like they've got to enhance, you know, expound on whatever that answer was. You know, I remember. I remember when I was a CFI prepping a student for a private pilot check, right? This is a long time ago, and were talking about airspace, and he was saying, you know, Class Delta is this and that and beyond and blah, blah. And he was absolutely right. And then he said, unlike Class Charlie, which is blah, blah. And he was wrong. And I said, well, wait a minute.
16:10
Pat Brown
I didn't ask you anything about Class Charlie airspace. I asked you a class Delta. Why did you go on about Class Charlie? You know, I'll say, what is the lesson we learned here? He said, stop talking when I'm done. That's a good lesson.
16:23
Bobby Doss
So I don't think I was this foolish, but I felt like I had to impress the dp and, boy, how stupid really was I. Because someone told me that the DP that did my private had like, 24, 000 hours. And I'm like, well, that doesn't sound like a whole lot of time in the grand scheme. I mean, I had no concept of what that meant, right, that you're not going to impress any of y', all, right? I think a private applicant isn't going to impress you with their book knowledge.
16:52
Pat Brown
Well, I'll tell you. Well, let me. Let me talk about that. Just A little bit. I was doing a. We don't, we don't know everything. Wally. And I will absolutely admit to anybody will listen, we don't know all there is to know. That's a, that's a big misnomer. We know a lot. And I will grant you that I don't say that in a boastful way. We know a lot. We've been flying a long time. We probably know more than a private pilot, but we don't know everything. And oftentimes I have to go look for things because I don't know the answer. In fact, told you earlier, before we started recording, while afterwards I got to talk to you about a multi engine thing because I don't know the answer to it. So we're going to talk about that.
17:26
Pat Brown
But, but I was doing an oral with a, an applicant some months back and were talking about TAFs and the duration of TAFs. And she said, well, usually they're 24 hours, they can be as little as 18. And she's absolutely right about that. And she said some of them are 30. And she's right about that too. And I said, yep, that's right. She says, you know, but I found out that the 30 hour ones are done at airports that have international flights. Really? I didn't know that. And I've been flying for a long time and I didn't realize that was the criteria for a 30 hour Taft.
18:03
Wally Mulhern
No, I just learned something because I didn't know that either.
18:05
Bobby Doss
And you've been to a few of those airports.
18:07
Wally Mulhern
Oh, yeah.
18:08
Pat Brown
And a lot of them. So, so, you know, we can and often do learn from applicants. When an applicant says something that, that I don't know, I'll usually make a note of it and go back because I don't necessarily want to challenge them on something that I can't go back and verify either.
18:29
Bobby Doss
Yeah, that's a very interesting point. I think what I was trying to do was speak in such words and language that would impress the gentleman about my reading of the P Hack.
18:41
Pat Brown
Right. Pilot Handbook of Aaron Akhimas in Shakespearean language. That's not going. Yeah.
18:45
Bobby Doss
And all you're gonna do is dig yourself a bigger coal. Right. You're gonna go on about something that wasn't asked about.
18:50
Pat Brown
Yeah.
18:50
Bobby Doss
And it's answer the question probably as possible. Yeah. And then.
18:57
Wally Mulhern
Well, the one I snicker at under not out loud. But I, I tell my applicant that everything that we talk about in this oral is going to be the context of this flight that were taking. Okay? So I, I will say to them, okay, tell me. And I'm going to give away one of my secrets. But this is a question. I'll, I'll quit using it after this. But I will say, tell me what for this flight and our flight is, we're staying within the United States. Tell me what documents are required in the airplane and they will start going through Arrow. They'll say, I need an airworthiness certificate, registration, a radio license if we're going international. And, and I just sit there and I think, well, we're not going international.
19:47
Wally Mulhern
But okay, you know, I, for me, I would just leave that out because we're not going international. And probably most of these airplanes that are at these flight schools do not have a radio license.
19:59
Pat Brown
So you think.
20:00
Bobby Doss
So what's your follow up question when they open that kimono?
20:03
Wally Mulhern
Well, sometimes I say, well, okay, well tell me since we're talking about radio license, what radios are required to be on the radio license? And then they kind of turn red. The answer is every radio that transmits, which is your, you know, obviously your comm, your transponder and your elt.
20:26
Bobby Doss
Yeah, we've had that conversation.
20:28
Wally Mulhern
Right.
20:29
Bobby Doss
Any other things in the oral before we move on to the dreaded pre flight?
20:34
Pat Brown
Well, probably something will come up, but.
20:37
Bobby Doss
Not that if you think of it, let's, we'll talk about it, but let's talk pre flight. So, okay, this is a moment where the applicant is on cloud nine. I feel like the first half is over. Everybody tell me if I got through the first half, that would be a good accomplishment. Now I'm going up and I'm getting dispatched, whatever that looks like at the flight school, there's a lull where you're not around. Everybody's kind of looking at each other. Can I ask him how's it going? The applicant walks back outside, they're gonna pre flight. I'm assuming you see common errors during the pre flight. I hear, I hear of hour long pre flights to impress you as well. Talk to me a little bit about pre flight common errors.
21:18
Wally Mulhern
I, I, I'm not gonna say this is so much an error, but the flight, you know, regardless of what your checklist says, I would say first thing is to go out there and check the fuel in the airplane. So if we need fuel, let's go ahead and make arrangements to get the fuel truck over. Because I've watched these maybe not hour long pre flights, but I've watched these 30 to 45 minute pre flights then they check the fuel and realize we don't have the required fuel. So then the phone call is made and we may we wait another 30 to 45 minutes for the fuel truck to show up. So you know let's check the consumable things that we can fix right now before we even move on to other things.
22:04
Wally Mulhern
And then you know, then get in and get the checklist and start your pre flight.
22:10
Pat Brown
Yeah.
22:11
Bobby Doss
Just out of curiosity, has anybody ever left the plane tied down for y'?
22:14
Pat Brown
All?
22:16
Bobby Doss
I heard of a chalk story recently with.
22:19
Pat Brown
Oh chalks, yes, but tied down.
22:20
Wally Mulhern
No, I know, I just had a chalk story. Let's see Saturday. Now this young man had not started the airplane but were all strapped in. Luckily it was in a Cessna 150 so he had his own door. I didn't have to get out but I was actually in a multi engine airplane where we started both engines and we called ground and we got a taxi clearance and then he went oh no.
22:46
Bobby Doss
So that's the one I heard about.
22:48
Wally Mulhern
Yeah. We had to tell ground that weren't ready to taxi and then of course I had to get out so he could get out. And the stress level, if, if we could have some measure of blood pressure or pulse or whatever. I, I see the stress going up and then I become the nurse maid of saying it's okay, it's all right.
23:12
Pat Brown
That's happened to me before.
23:13
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
23:13
Pat Brown
And we've all done it. Yeah, we've all done it.
23:15
Wally Mulhern
We have.
23:16
Pat Brown
You know there was, I was remember years ago in Brenham this had nothing to do with the checkride but years ago in Brenham were coming out for lunch and There was a 421 on the ramp and it had those big 747 style chocks on it, you know that you can't hop no matter what. And the guy had started up his engines and he must have realized that there was chalk. If I'll just hop it. So goes the throttles. Right that and he collapsed the nose gear. Oh and prop strikes and dug about a 3 inch trench in the concrete of the, you know, the tarmac.
23:49
Bobby Doss
And of course can you say hundred thousand dollar mistake?
23:52
Pat Brown
Easily $100,000.
23:54
Wally Mulhern
All that. No, a lot more than that. I, I would get. I mean they're probably two three bladed props.
24:00
Pat Brown
Two probably geared engines and big.
24:03
Wally Mulhern
Oh yeah.
24:04
Pat Brown
And the, and the nose gear that was probably, actually probably close to a two hundred Thousand dollar mistake. So, so that, that stuff, that stuff can happen, you know, on a, on a pre flight. And I don't know that this is really an error. I guess it goes along with the, you know, the 45 minute pre flight or something like that. But you know, I want to see the applicant using a checklist. But for me it's perfectly okay if they walk around and do their flow. I'm going to check this, I'm going to check that. They look at the ailerons and all the other stuff around there and you know, they got the checklist. But afterwards, okay, I checked this, I check this, I check. Oh, I forgot. And back up their flow with the checklist because they're using the checklist and which is.
24:51
Pat Brown
The ACS requires the use of a checklist during a pre flight. But for me, oftentimes looking at the checklist in a situation like that is you can't see the trees for the forest almost. And so if that's the right way to put it, the forest for the trees, either one, it's too micro. Let's get a bigger look and then we'll double check line item by line. I mean, I'm fine with that.
25:15
Bobby Doss
And I think there's some confusion in the applicant world.
25:20
Pat Brown
Y'.
25:20
Wally Mulhern
All.
25:21
Bobby Doss
Y' all aren't expecting them to have the plane reserved for the whole checkride? No, I think everybody wants that airworthiness certificate available and registration like pictures of. That's fine. You're going to look at it again when you get to the plane. Somebody recently told me that they needed the plane for the whole ride. I just, I don't think, I think that's a common error from a standpoint of how you go about managing that expectation.
25:44
Pat Brown
But here's the thing though, is what if we have to reply to refer to the POH and the POH is flying in the airplane, you know, now if they've got a copy of it, if they've got a photocopy of it, if they got something on their phone, the relevant parts of the PoH are usually going to be somewhere in the weight and balance area. Usually, but not necessarily always. So is there like an office copy of a POH that they could refer to? Even if it's just a generic PoH for a Cessna 172 for the purpose of the, of just the oral portion?
26:19
Bobby Doss
That's what I was going to ask with a pilot information manual, which is a non stamp poh, but yeah, fits that serial number, that would be good enough to review. You want performance charts I'm assuming, and that sort of information.
26:34
Wally Mulhern
I think, I think I can honestly say that I have never taken a check ride in an airplane ever. That I did not have a personal copy of the poh, including my airline. I mean obviously airlines that were provided a copy of it, you know, it's electronic. But I was just in my office the other day and I, I saw my very first book was a Piper PA38,112, a Piper Tomahawk. And when I walked in for my first flight lesson, the instructor had me buy two things. He had me buy a log book and he had me buy that manual for that airplane. And I still have it. I mean that thing's really old.
27:24
Bobby Doss
Well, and we are talking common errors. I think one common error is that everyone thinks a172 is a172. If I downloaded a172, poh is the poh. They're very much specific by serial number. Avionics equipment, supplements, many supplements could have been added. So be careful out there that you do have a poh, if it's electronic that you downloaded that it does meet the requirements for your aircraft because it could be very far fetched from what reality really is.
27:50
Pat Brown
And what I'm going to be interested in, you know, is a performance chart. For example. I mean we might be talking about density, altitude and hey, it's, you know, it's 30C outside today. How's that going to affect your performance? Well, well let's, why don't we run a quick performance evaluation on a, you know, X, you know, this hard surface Runway with a 10 knot headwind or something like that. What's our takeoff run going to be? And I don't care if it's a generic manual for something like that because I'm more interested that they understand how to do the calculation than do it for 30117.
28:25
Bobby Doss
Sure.
28:25
Pat Brown
You know, so and same thing for the weight and balance for the purpose of the oral. Now of course they have to run the weight and balance for using the real numbers for the actual checkride. But in terms of a theoretical discussion about weight and balance, a generic PoH for me is fine.
28:46
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And you know, one thing I always ask is, I said well, what true airspeed did you use in your flight planning? And they'll usually come up with a number and I'll say, well, how did you get that and sometimes I get, well, that's just what we use.
29:05
Pat Brown
Yeah.
29:06
Wally Mulhern
And I'll say, okay, well, let's, let's figure out if it's really that number. But it. I, we're getting better on that. My app, my applicants are getting. Word must be out because now I'll get on, you know, 109 knots. I'll say, how'd you get that? And they pull out the chart. And I'll say, okay, well, it's 20 degrees, and we're at 6,500ft. And okay, 65 power.
29:31
Pat Brown
Okay, good.
29:32
Wally Mulhern
Very good.
29:34
Bobby Doss
Yeah, fantastic. So let's wet everyone's beak out there for part two a little bit and start talking about. The plane is now started. We're moving. Is there any common errors with taxing?
29:45
Pat Brown
Oh, well, first of all, before we get moving.
29:46
Bobby Doss
Okay, here we go.
29:47
Pat Brown
What about the passenger brief?
29:49
Bobby Doss
There you go. I would have failed my check route, I guess.
29:52
Pat Brown
What about the passenger brief and what are the elements required in the passenger brief? Because I've gotten in there and nobody's shown me how to shut the door. Nobody's shown me how to move the seat up and back. Nobody's shown me how to buckle the seat belt. Nobody's shown me how to open or close the window. And it's not all those errors in one particular checkride unless they just forget to give me a passenger briefing, which I had one do a couple of weeks ago. Totally forgot to do a passenger briefing. So, you know, I just sat there with my seatbelt unbuckled and door open when you started the engine. Aren't you going to buckle your seatbelt? You never told me how. Oh, and now you talk about the stress level, you know, off the scale, so faster.
30:38
Pat Brown
And, you know, another one is the takeoff briefing. If we lose an engine, you know, what are we going to do? I mean, that's kind of important. You know, I tell them usually in the debrief, I said, so, you know, when you're doing this takeoff briefing and you're flying with somebody that has never flown in an airplane before, it's probably not best to say out loud if we lose an engine.
30:59
Wally Mulhern
Right.
30:59
Pat Brown
You know, but you should be at least thinking that what's going to happen if something goes wrong. But for me, I want to hear what their thought process out loud.
31:08
Bobby Doss
Probably a whole nother series. But the door made me think about common areas that I think CFIs make. And I've heard this where maybe an applicant has never even closed the door on a Piper, because they've flown nothing but dual instruction flights. They, they're all trying to get off and going. And, you know, you almost can't fault them for trying to be busy and go. But if the applicants never reached over and closed the door themselves, I don't think y' all are going to close the door for them.
31:35
Pat Brown
No.
31:36
Bobby Doss
So they have to at least practice that a couple times. And I keep that in mind.
31:40
Wally Mulhern
I think as an instructor, a very good teaching point is to let them take off with the door open to show them that the airplane actually flies just fine. Just turn around, come back, land, close it and take off again.
31:54
Pat Brown
Or pop the door on the rotation.
31:56
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, yeah. That's another thing, because all of a sudden it gets noisy, you feel a breeze. Yeah. It's not that big a deal, but if you're not ready for it, the stun factor is, could be a little bit overwhelming. Going back to the takeoff briefing, I guess what I like to see the applicant do is actually make sure that I'm understanding it. Because a lot of times they have this rote thing that they just speak, they just go through and they use airplane terms. They said, like, we like to keep a sterile cockpit and blah, blah, blah. And then they'll say, you have any questions? I said, I'm looking at this cockpit. It doesn't look very sterile to me. It looks.
32:39
Bobby Doss
You must be flying at other flight schools.
32:41
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And they'll say, they give me kind of look. I go, what do you mean by sterile cockpit? They said, oh, yeah, well, let's keep talking to a minimum. I go, okay. I, I, as the layperson, not a pilot, can understand that. So, you know, you got to, when you give that briefing, you gotta make sure, you know, it's like playing catch. You gotta make sure they catch it right. For sure.
33:07
Pat Brown
You know, the other thing, too, and this is probably slightly off topic, but when you mentioned that the takeoff briefing on that, it's, it's just, it's a rote thing. If we lose an engine on the Runway, we're going to throttle back and exit the Runway. If we lose the engine at 300ft or 400ft, we're doing remaining, we're going to land on the remaining Runway. If we lose the engine at 4 or 500ft, we're going to look 30 degrees either side of the nose and we're going to land out there trying to avoid hitting anything. If we're at a thousand feet. What are we going to do? We're going to turn back to the airport. What? Yeah, okay, maybe in a 172 or an archer or something like that you can make it back to the airport.
33:53
Pat Brown
But if you're in a bonanza or you're in an arrow or if you're in a cirrus or something like that, it's probably a bad example because the parachute. But the point is still the same. There is no way you're going to make it back to an Airport at 1,000ft in one of those types of airplanes. Yet we teach them to go through this stuff as rote and we're setting them up to hurt themselves down the road when they start flying bigger airplanes because they're programmed from the word go from the first flight, they're programmed at 1,000ft. We're going to make it back to the airport.
34:35
Bobby Doss
Challenge yourself, find a simulator and go try that a few times. If you're, if you can do it half the time in a 172, I'd be shocked. And that's because, and that's you knowing that it's going to happen.
34:46
Pat Brown
If you, if you, if you take into account the oh my goodness factor, I'm cleaning that up a little bit first for radio here. If you take into account the oh my goodness factor, you might be able to make that. It's really more like a 270 degree turn by the time you line up with the Runway. But you might be able to make that in six or 700ft. If you, if you know it's coming and you get really good at it. You in a 172an archer, that kind of stuff, you can likely make that turn back in a 4 to 500ft. But that's knowing it's coming and practicing it and nobody practices it and nobody knows it's coming.
35:27
Pat Brown
So you know, if you're, if you know it's coming and you practice it and you can get it down to let's say 500ft, double that because that's the reality. So that thousand feet, maybe, maybe.
35:41
Bobby Doss
Maybe if the winds aren't shifting or crossing or whatever else and then which.
35:45
Pat Brown
Way is the wind? Which way is the wind? Got to turn into the wind.
35:48
Bobby Doss
Oh yeah. You got to make sure you don't make a mistake.
35:50
Pat Brown
For sure. Yeah.
35:52
Wally Mulhern
So.
35:53
Bobby Doss
Okay, well, we're kind of 35 minutes. We probably should wrap this part up. We'll call this part one. We still have a whole lot of checkride left.
36:01
Pat Brown
We hadn't got to the flight yet.
36:04
Bobby Doss
We haven't even got off the tarmac yet. But we'll get off the tarmac next week for sure. Share many more common errors. Hope you like this episode. Welcome back Pat. Next week we'll do the fifth or sixth or seventh visit for you. And until then, fly safely and stay behind the prop.
36:22
Nick Alan
Thanks for checking out the behind the Prop podcast. Be sure to click subscribe and check us out online at behind the Prop.com behind the Prop is recorded in Houston, Texas. Creator and host is Bobby Doss. Co host is Wally Mulhern. The show is for entertainment purposes only and is not meant to replace actual flight instruction. Thanks for listening and remember, fly safe.