This week on BTP, it's all about sticking to the checklist!
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00:01
Behind the Prop Intro
Clear prop 773 Cherokee number two following twin traffic three mile final one trolley bravo makesford in Runway two five going four mile.
00:10
Nick Alan
This is behind the prop with United Flight Systems owner and licensed pilot Bobby Doss and his co host, major airline captain and designated pilot examiner Wally Mulhern. Now let's go behind the prop.
00:24
Bobby Doss
What's up Wally?
00:25
Wally Mulhern
Hey Bobby, how are you?
00:26
Bobby Doss
I'm, I am fantastic as always this week we're tackling maybe a subject we've covered some in the past and some by maybe quite a bit in the past, but something that we just have to keep getting better at and it's because you've seen some bad things on checkrides. We're going to talk about checklist discipline today and it's not just about some of the stuff we've talked about in the past on checklists, where they came from and maybe why we should be using them, but a little bit more of the do's and don'ts and how the airlines are going to expect pilots to use them versus maybe how we might use them in a flight school or club today and just dive into more good and bad and do's and don'ts to try and help the listeners out there today.
01:08
Bobby Doss
I know you once had a job that was almost all checklists. Tell us a little bit about that history again for those that don't remember.
01:15
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, my first job as a, at a major airline was as a second officer and second officer was a third pilot on a three pilot airplane. I, I happen to fly the 727. So you had a captain and a first officer and a officer and the second officer is also known as the flight engineer. Basically you sat behind the two of those guys or gals or whatever the case may be. And you're basically the systems manager. You manage the, the generators, the fuel system, the hydraulic system, the pneumatic system. You did all the performance calculations and probably your most important job is you got up and answered the door when people would knock on the door and pass the food up, really. But no. So as a second officer were kind of the manager, if you will, of the checklist.
02:12
Wally Mulhern
So anytime we had an abnormal or an emergency or normal for that matter, you're the one who was basically reading the checklist.
02:20
Bobby Doss
And you've been to school on how checklists work and the kind of, the humanity of that kind of stuff, right?
02:27
Wally Mulhern
Oh yeah.
02:28
Bobby Doss
What, what one word does to us a checklist item. So it's not like you're just using them for the last 35 years. You're very intimate in how they work and how they're made.
02:41
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we are always taught that, you know, I mean, we, to an extent, we are pretty anal about the checklist. I mean, before you start a checklist, you state the name of the checklist. Fuel, low pressure, light illuminated checklist. And then you go through the whole procedure and then when you're done with it, you would say, Fuel, low pressure, light illuminated checklist is complete. And I trained myself to not feel comfortable until I heard those words. Whatever. Checklist complete.
03:20
Bobby Doss
Is that, is that, and maybe, I don't know, is this in the SOPs, like the way you read the checklist, the way you state the title?
03:27
Wally Mulhern
Absolutely. The airlines are pretty. You know, it's, it, yeah, it's outlined in the preamble of all the flight manuals.
03:38
Bobby Doss
Yeah. And so you come into the GA world, you do a check ride or you fly for fun. You're Saratoga. It's not quite the same rigor because we don't enforce it, we don't train it that way. Why do you think it is that the rigor? I mean, this is all about saving lives, right? Safety first. So why do we not treat it the same way in this world?
04:02
Wally Mulhern
Well, I think we get, you know, a lot of people. Well, first of all, the airplanes that you're flying in general aviation probably are not as complex. So, you know, we can just say that they're not okay. But having said that, it is a discipline to run the checklist because you get used to flying A, say A172. Okay. Maybe A, A fuel injected 172. Okay. You don't have to worry about the gear being down. You don't have to worry about the propeller being in the proper position. You don't need to worry about the cow flaps being open or closed. But now, you know, so if you got a lot of experience, that 172, you're just used to doing that. Well, now you move up to the 182. Well, guess what? The 182 has a propeller that's controllable. You can control the pitch on that.
05:07
Wally Mulhern
And it's pretty darn important that you get that prop full forward on the approach because if you have to go around, you want as much power to get at that airplane off the, you know, out of the way as possible. You've probably got cow flaps to worry about. If you, if you're just not thinking about the cow flaps, you may, you know, not operate the engine efficiently. Then you move on to that 182 RG and you got something that's really important, and that's that landing gear or an arrow or whatever the airplane may be. So it is a discipline to use the checklist and most of the maneuvers. Well, pretty much all the maneuver, all the landings in the acs for the private and commercial.
05:56
Wally Mulhern
I wish I had it right in front of me, but it says, I think it says appropriate use of checklist. Okay. And there's nothing that you can call appropriate use of checklist by not using.
06:11
Bobby Doss
The checklist if you don't have one out. Maybe so.
06:15
Wally Mulhern
So you need to use the checklist and then you need to use it appropriately. So you know that's kind of a, a. Well, there's no room for, for interpretation on that one. Not having the checklist out is not using a checklist.
06:34
Bobby Doss
So you've talked a lot about in the past using a checklist as a checklist or maybe using it as a do list, maybe doing flows. I, I know when I was brought up, I only flew 172s. I kind of had the two or three that I really like flying. I was gonna take my check rides in these planes. They're still sitting out there tonight on the flight line. But I was kind of taught just start at the floor. You know, the fuel switch kind of come up the center console there, get up to the mixture, and then come left back over to the ignition switch. And you pretty much cover everything and verify with the checklist. But is that a bad habit to get into? Is that a good habit?
07:12
Bobby Doss
How would you suggest pilots manage themselves as it relates to checklists, do list flows, or a combination thereof?
07:21
Wally Mulhern
I would. The way I would check, the way I would teach, if I were teaching today, would be to go through and do your flow. In other words, go through and put all the switches in what you believe are the appropriate position and then run the checklist and hopefully everything is done. Well, if you've missed something, that's what the checklist is for a little bit. Like, okay, let's, you know, it seems like we, we learn to fly and the idea of a checklist is something new. Oh, gee, a checklist. I've never used a checklist. Well, we've all used checklists. We've all been to A grocery store, we've all gone, we've all made a shopping list. Okay. And how you use that shopping list in the store can vary.
08:10
Wally Mulhern
Somebody may go in and there's six things on the shopping list, and they look at item number one and they go to that aisle and they get that item. Then they look at item number two and then they go to that aisle and get that item. Some people may go up and down all the aisles and before they actually go check out, they go through and they say, okay, pickles, ketchup, mustard, hot dog buns. Hot dogs, potato chips. Yeah, I got everything I need. I already got it. You know that would be considered checklist, but going down and saying, okay, pickles, let me go to aisle seven, get the pickles. Hot dog buns. Okay, that's aisle one. Let me go over to aisle one. That's a way to do it too.
08:55
Wally Mulhern
I mean, I, I think it's less efficient, but it works and that's what we want to do. At the end of the day, if you want to use the checklist as a do list, that's okay. But when you get into bigger airplanes, when you start going to formal training airlines and flight safety, corporate flight departments, that sort of stuff in all likelihood for your normals, for the normals, you're going to be doing them as flow items and then you will back it up with a checklist.
09:28
Bobby Doss
And so I've been known to like, when I do my pre flight and I fly one plane more often than not, but if I'm doing a pre flight on the 182. Right. I kind of do start at my back door or the baggage door there, I get out of my door and then I go back to the fuselage and the elevator and I kind of stop there and I go back and make sure I checked everything. Is that's a flow being verified by the checklist at that point, right?
09:58
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, absolutely.
09:59
Bobby Doss
Gives me a chance to flow a few items without having to do each one. And right then I get to check and make sure, okay, I didn't miss the antennas. I should have looked at the belly. And I look down and I check the antennas and I move on to the next section.
10:12
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
10:13
Bobby Doss
And for me it's the next, you know, 10 or 12ft of workable area, I guess.
10:18
Wally Mulhern
Yeah. You know, and you know, I'm dealing with it at my airline job right now. I just recently got checked out as a line check pilot on a triple seven. And so I'm flying in the right seat occasionally. And so I'm doing first officer stuff. I'm doing flows, I'm doing after landing flows. And you know, you go through and you do it. And, and one thing that I, I kept missing was the transponder. Well, after two or three times of missing it and seeing it on the checklist, guess what? You quit missing it.
10:55
Bobby Doss
Yeah. Makes sense. What about your world? It's all electronic, I assume, right? Our world, we have the chance to have paper, most probably clubs and flight schools, probably have something laminated. We have foreflight now, probably use your phone foreflight and check things off. Some aircraft like G1000s and others might have a very sophisticated electronic checklist. What, what would be your preference if you had multiple opportunities, obviously. And if you say this, I think all of our listeners would laugh. You're not going to use the PoH as your checklist, like, meaning you're not going to have that on your lap using the originals?
11:37
Wally Mulhern
No, no.
11:38
Bobby Doss
So in all likely, what would be your pick? If you had to pick, I would.
11:44
Wally Mulhern
I would go with what is in the airplane? Most airplanes will have, you know, general aviation airplanes will have some laminated form of a, of a paper checklist. You know, you may go to a flight school and the flight school has personalized to that particular flight school. And, and hopefully they've done their due diligence. And it's, it is a representation of what is in the poh. I mean, obviously if the POH has a couple of items and then you leave them off on your homemade checklist, that's not good at all. But a lot of times flight schools like to standardize between their fleet and they may have some airplanes that are of one manufacturer and some that are of another. And so they're doing their best to standardize their checklist. So, you know, I, I would tend to go with that.
12:39
Wally Mulhern
I know in my airplane I have a, an aftermarket checklist that I, I bought. It's, it's a booklet type thing and has all my performance data in there. And it works real well. You know, it just flows very well for me. And again, I use it as a checklist before takeoff. You know, I go through and I do my run up at 2000rpm, I exercise the prop, I do the mag check, I, you know, I check my alternate air, I do all that and check my vacuum, my engine, instruments. And after I've done all that, then I go through and I look on the checklist and occasionally, you know, it's like, oh, gee, I forgot to look at the vacuum. Let me, let me go over there and look at that. Okay.
13:26
Bobby Doss
The. I guess the one thing that I think about is making sure that we don't just think any checklist will do. Right. Aircraft, even these basic aircraft are different fuel injected versus not fuel injected. And I, I have seen people use checklists from other places. You know, I've seen Crate, I've seen some pretty crazy stuff. Right. Yeah. Would you, if you walked into this flight school and it said company ABC flight school on instead of mine, would you trust that document if it said Cessna 172 at the top?
14:00
Wally Mulhern
No, I wouldn't. And I've seen that. I've, and I've asked the applicant where they got that and they said, oh, it's my previous flight school, I like this better. And I said, well, have you cross referenced this with the PoH to make sure everything in the PoH is covered on your checklist? Well, you know, and they usually stutter and it's usually a no.
14:29
Bobby Doss
Yeah. That's where I think I would get real nervous. Right. If I, if I walked up and it wasn't really clear that it was for that tail number. Right, right. Or maybe hadn't been cross referenced or checked. You know, I, I think we get comfortable because we fly these planes over and over and over again and we just know what we know about this fleet, that we maybe get comfortable to that knowledge. The knowledge that we know that the information's either accurate or really close compared to. I don't think I would get in a stranger's plane and them hand me a checklist that was just black and white and believe it, I'd want to sit down and look at the POH and cross reference that stuff.
15:12
Wally Mulhern
Right.
15:14
Bobby Doss
I just, I think I see people walk in and they don't do that due diligence. They don't take the time and effort. If there was any kind of equipment that I wasn't like really familiar with, another engine monitor, if it was a JPI and I have all these JPIs in my planes, I might trust that I know how to use that jpi. But if it wasn't a JPI engine monitor, I'd want to read the pilot information guide on that engine monitor.
15:39
Wally Mulhern
Right.
15:40
Bobby Doss
To at least give me a head start on what that equipment was going to be telling me. And what do my eyes do when I read off the checklist? You know, engines in the green, where's the green that I need to see? All the greens, not just one green. Right. So I'd really try to do my due diligence and be disciplined, as we used that word today, to make sure I knew what I was looking at. So whether it's paper, whether it's electronic, whether it's laminated, or a variation of both, make sure that you do know where the checklists originated from and that they're valid. Right. There are a number of third parties out there, but even those third parties I would validate with a PoH if I bought one.
16:22
Wally Mulhern
Right. And so here we are, we're talking about normal checklists. So let's spend a little bit and talk about abnormal or emergency checklists. Okay. For our purposes, I'm just going to call them abnormal checklists. Back in the day, we used to have abnormal procedures and emergency procedures and what's the difference who defines that? This is an emergency. Now at my earlier, we call it normal and non normal. So anything that's not normal is a non normal. And you know, I think one thing, if you wanted to sit down with your poh, you know, one thing that is pretty worthwhile to study, I believe is the table of contents. The table of contents of the abnormal or the non normal section. Just so you know, what is available. Okay. You know, think of a baseball team.
17:28
Wally Mulhern
I mean, the manager, they're going into the eighth inning and he's thinking of who he's got in the bullpen, who he can bring in. Okay, I've got a righty and a lefty and you know, that's all I've got today. Or I've got two righties, I got two lefties or whatever. So just knowing what is available, because I, on, you know, on the commercial checkrides, I talk about an abnormal situation in these airplanes, that most of these airplanes do not have a procedure for it. And so we kind of talk through it and we end up talking a lot about systems and that sort of stuff. And, and to my applicant's credits, I mean, most of them, when I say, suppose this happens, by and large, the majority of them say, I really don't think there's a procedure for that.
18:19
Wally Mulhern
And I'll say, well, let's see, and they'll look it up and sure enough, there's not a procedure. And then we end up kind of working through how we might get through this situation. So again, just knowing what is available to you. The checklist is a tool and the poh. Call the POH your toolbox. What's in there are the tools. And it's important to know what's in your toolbox. Do I have a screwdriver? Do I have a hammer in my toolbox?
18:50
Bobby Doss
Yeah, I think that's important to talk about these other homemade checklists or these variations that are created by clubs, flight schools and everybody else in the world. I doubt it's every item that's in that table of contents. Right. Even though we have normal procedures and we've got pre flight and we've got emergency procedures, it's probably the more common things we teach to right to have them readily available. I know this time of year in Houston people are gonna laugh that aren't from Houston. But it's been really chilly lately. Like it got to below freezing three nights in a row and we all thought were gonna die. But you know when it got cold you could hear these engines out here. Just crank, crank, crank.
19:33
Bobby Doss
And after like the third attempt I'd get up from my office and I walk out there and I would, they would see me coming so they would quit making their. And I would say did you do the cold start checklist? Yes. And I said well I don't see it out. How did you do that? And they well, we did it from the checklist. Well, that paper checklist doesn't have the cold start on it. This happens three days out of 365 down here. So we don't put the cold start on our made up checklist. Right. You'd have to look in the POH and not to follow this but most of them just say prime it a lot more and that's the cold start checklist. But. And every time they push the primer in three or four more extra times and they're getting the engines going.
20:17
Bobby Doss
But not every checklist I think is the point are going to be on those other aftermarket checklists. They're trying to hit the 80 percentile, right?
20:26
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
20:27
Bobby Doss
And they're going to leave some stuff off. And I think what I see a lot here too is when people do have those non normal conditions, they don't default to the checklist, they default to Google phone home, all these other options which isn't checklist discipline. Just recently, I want to say less than two weeks, got a call that a gentleman was stuck in another city with the arrow which is a complex aircraft with retractable gear and landed successfully but didn't get three green and was really worried, didn't know what to do and was having the airplane service.
21:07
Bobby Doss
And I'm like, oh my gosh, that's a lot of effort for something that we would, could easily turn to a checklist and lo and behold, you look in the arrow checklist and as you Wally would call it, I would turn to a certain page under the emergency procedures and I would look at the. Let me find it here quickly. I would look at the emergency gear down landing. Well, sorry, the emergency landing gear extension. Because if I don't have three green, you definitely want to do the emergency gear extension. Right. In that process there's three items that we're only going to get to the third item. We're going to turn the master switch on. Surely that's on in the air if you're flying around. But I'll do my flow and verify with the checklist circuit breakers, check they're in.
21:58
Bobby Doss
And then I would go to panel lights and this gets about, oh, I don't know, at least somebody wants every other quarter right where they don't check the panel lights. And I just so happen to know that the night before that plane came back real late, nav lights were going to be on. Nav lights, the dimmer switch was going to be dimmed which means the three green lights probably weren't going to be visible on a bright Texas day. I did ask him did he see the three green before he left because he should have seen that in that checklist but didn't do that checklist either. So it's a common mistake. But there's going to be a checklist for that non normal situation that in three clicks or three checks he would have been able to know. Hey, nav lights, dimmer switch check.
22:45
Bobby Doss
I got my three green lights right away. Right, right. Same thing in the arrow happens a lot where one of the lights isn't working. That's probably because someone in testing or training prior to that pulled one just slightly out to trick a student because all you gotta do is barely touch it or push it in and they become. But that's the second or third thing on that checklist, right? What happens if I only have one two green lights, one green light. You can move those light bulbs around if you didn't know that out there people. But there's probably a non normal checklist that's not on a training or a everyday kind of usage checklist that A supply school or flight club might have.
23:25
Wally Mulhern
Yeah.
23:25
Bobby Doss
In it you told a couple stories before we started recording about some disastrous results because of lack of checklist usage.
23:35
Wally Mulhern
Well, yeah, you're talking about gears and you're talking about lights. We just passed, a couple days ago, we just passed the 50th anniversary of a, a horrible crash. It was Eastern Airlines Flight 401, which was an Lockheed L1011. And this airplane crashed on again December 29, 1972. So 50 years ago, just a few days ago, the airplane was coming into Miami from, I'm not sure where it was from, but it was coming into Miami. And when they put the gear down, they didn't get three green lights. So they told ATC they needed to go out and work through this problem. They went out and they ended up holding out over the Everglades and they were trying to work through this problem of did they have a gear problem or did they have a light bulb problem? And an L1011 had a flight engineer.
24:37
Wally Mulhern
So there were three pilots, three perfectly qualified pilots on this airplane. And while working through this checklist, they all three of them got very involved in the checklist, which is a big no. You know, anytime you're in a multiple pilot crew, one pilot is flying the airplane and the other pilot or the other pilots should be working through the emergency or the abnormal situation. And, and that was the case here with three pilots. There should have been one pilot whose sole job was to fly the airplane. Don't get into the checklist, don't worry about it. Just fly the airplane. And that's what didn't happen. And so of course the airplane has an autopilot. And what was determined happened is that somehow the control column got bumped and the autopilot got knocked off and they never knew it.
25:43
Wally Mulhern
And they flew the airplane in the ground, in the everlights and killed a lot of people. And it was over a, I don't know, a 39 cent light bulb. The gear was down, it was perfectly fine, but they did not have a green light. So from that crash we learned a lot. You know, man, somebody's got to stay home and mind the shop. Somebody has to be monitoring that airplane. You know, when you go into surgery, there's probably an anesthesiologist that sits over there or a nurse anesthetist or something, but somebody is just over there monitoring vital signs. They're monitoring pulse, your, your blood pressure, all kinds of stuff. And if Something starts to go awry, they're going to speak up. Hey doc, we're losing, you know, blood pressure is going down, there's a bleed somewhere. So we have to make that assignment.
26:44
Wally Mulhern
Now in general aviation flying, you know, we're usually doing single pilot stuff. So we're at a little bit of a disadvantage right off the bat. I mean here we are in a single pilot situation and we've got an emergency, so, or an abnormal. So you do have your hands full. But there was, you know, there was an American tragedy that was just again, over a 39 cent light bulb.
27:12
Bobby Doss
Well, in that even in single pilot we've all probably heard aviate, navigate, communicate, right? Because that's kind of the priority there for sure. And you got to fly the plane first. And maybe you never even get to the checklist in reality. In this, in these aircraft you got to be able to fly the bird before you do anything else for sure. So let's talk about some common mistakes that you see from applicants that have got to be corrected. Where we've got to have this discipline, where we've got to better with our checklist usage, not just for the checkride, but for safety as a whole. What are some of the big mistakes you see applicants and pilots make?
27:54
Wally Mulhern
Yeah, well, probably the biggest mistake is not using the checklist. I mean it's so simple. But you know, we start flying around in the pattern and we're maybe in a, you know, a, a not a very complex airplane, a 172 or a Warrior or something like that, and we just start doing landings and we're not using the checklist. So that's, that is a big mistake. I mean again, appropriate use of checklist is what the ACS says and there's nothing about not using a checklist that you could call appropriate. Another, another thing. A lot of checklists have as over on the right hand side under the response they have the words as required. As required is not an appropriate checklist response. And listen to what I'm saying. As required is not an appropriate checklist response.
29:00
Wally Mulhern
The reason it says as required is because depending on the situation, the switch position may vary. Okay. It may say fuel pump as required. Well, maybe below 80 degrees the fuel pump needs to be on. Maybe above 80 degrees it doesn't. Or vice versa. I don't know, I'm just making something up right now. But we don't want to. I Mean when you say fuel pump is as required, that's just wasted breath. We haven't said a thing. So when you say, you know, when you call out the left side is usually a switch. The right side is usually the position of that switch. So as required says nothing. We've just wasted breath. So, you know, if it's nav lights, as required, Nav lights, they're off, it's daytime. Nav lights are on, it's nighttime. Okay?
30:08
Wally Mulhern
I mean, you don't need to add the, it's daytime or it's nighttime. Just say the switch position. Again, as required is an inappropriate checklist response.
30:20
Bobby Doss
Do you think we just get in the bad habit of that? Do you think we're not teaching that? Do you think, do you think we should say on or off on that? You know, is there something we can do other than just train better, Wally?
30:31
Wally Mulhern
No, I think it needs to be trained because when you get to the next level, the checklists are going to say as required. They're not going to say on or off. I think we just need to learn how to do it the right way. It, you know, it's, I don't know, it's. I might look at, as I'm walking to go administer a checkride, I may look at the name of my applicant and it says James. Well, I'm probably, his name is probably Jim. He probably goes by Jim. So when I walk in the room, I'm probably not going to call him James. I'm going to say hey, Jim. And, and you know, if he goes by James, he might say, hey, I go by James. Okay, not a problem. We've, we've fixed that.
31:20
Wally Mulhern
So, you know, I can look at James and say it's probably Jim. I can look at as required and say is probably on or off, right? Or, you know, there might be another response for that.
31:33
Bobby Doss
Any other items that we as applicants or students just have to get better at when it relates to checklists.
31:45
Wally Mulhern
You know, and I just keep going back to just doing the doggone checklist. Just doing it and making sure, you know, I have taught myself that I can't feel right about a non normal checklist until I say the words manual gear extension checklist complete. And I'm always going to say that.
32:11
Bobby Doss
That'S a good point. We went through three steps, but even if we got three green, then we shouldn't stop there, right? We should finish that full checklist, announce that the checklist is complete. Even single pilot or crew, we should get through that whole checklist because we might get a false positive, I guess is my point there.
32:32
Wally Mulhern
And the other thing is, when you perform a checklist, this sounds so simple. It sounds so simple. But when you work through a checklist, you want to read every word on the checklist, but only the words on the checklist. In other words, say everything that's there, but don't add anything. Don't take things away. If there's a note, read the note. Because the note may say, hey, under gusty conditions, this may happen. You know, it might be something important. So read the note, read everything there. But don't start adding words. Don't start taking away words. You know, a lot of times we sit in the briefing room and we go through checklists, and I find applicants just going down a rabbit hole and just making stuff up. And I just sit there and go, man, I don't know what you're talking about.
33:28
Wally Mulhern
I don't know where you're getting all this. And, you know, we need to come back to just reading what's on the checklist.
33:37
Bobby Doss
I'm sure they've been vetted or from the poh. If it's like the poh, I'm sure that's been vetted, overanalyzed. The manufacturer's been over at, the FAA has been over it. It's probably a pretty good place to stick to it and absolutely not add a few things here.
33:52
Wally Mulhern
Absolutely.
33:53
Bobby Doss
So today's been all about checklist discipline. If you find that you don't use it as much as you should, let's be disciplined people. Let's make sure we're using it. Whether we're behind a prop plane or something with four big jet engines on it, let's make sure, no matter how simple or complex it is, that we're using our checklists and have that discipline to use them every time in every situation. And as always, fly safely and stay behind the prop.
34:21
Nick Alan
Thanks for checking out the behind the Prop podcast. Be sure to click subscribe and check us out online@brave.theprop.com behind the prop is recorded in Houston, Texas. Creator and host is Bobby Doss. Co host is Wally Mulhern. The show is for entertainment purposes only and is not meant to replace Action actual flight instruction. Thanks for listening and remember, fly safe.