Wally has seen and heard it all from his years as a D.P.E. & major airline captain! Bobby has seen his fair share of interesting things too as a pilot and flight school owner. This week they team up and give us some great tips for talking on the radio like a pro.
Learning radio communications is an essential part of learning to fly... but it can be really scary at first! You're sharing the frequency with many experienced pilots and controllers, and here you are a brand new pilot. How are you supposed to keep up?? Bobby and Wally bust out the A.I.M. and give us a great list of things to do... and things NOT to do on the radio while flying!
Clear prop! Number two following twin traffic on 3 mile final. JB using runway 25 on a 4-mile final.
This is Behind the Prop with United Flight Systems owner and licensed pilot, Bobby Doss. and it's co-host: major airline captain Designated Pilot Examiner, Wally Mulhearn. Now let's go behind the prop!
What's up, Wally? Hey Bobby how are you. great this week. We are going to dive into other requests from a listener Thank you very much to Corey Mclean for giving us this idea. And it's all about proper radio techniques. I'm sure during all your check rides Wally. You have heard some crazy stuff but I give me an idea give the listeners. An idea like how much bad radio technique do you see. There's there's a lot of improper radio technique. I think the end of the day that the reason we talk on the radio is to communicate and so we want effective communication And can can. We communicate effectively using Maybe improper techniques we can. So there's there's kind of three levels of of communicating the way I look at it The the top level the the the one that we all wanna strive for. I would think is that we use Proper terminology and we. We communicate effectively The the I’m gonna skip to the absolute the the number three Scenario which is where we don't want to be is improper technique and ineffective communication And then somewhere in the middle is maybe improper technique but still effective communication. I mean I guess if you were in an unfortunate situation an airplane and you screamed and yelled that you're on fire Maybe the controller may understand your predicament and Provide the necessary. help where you know. Obviously, there's a better way to do that. rather than screaming over the Which I’ve never heard by the way But as what. I see as an observer and that's what I am as an examiner at an airplane. I'm an observer I’m not a crew member I I am not really even a pilot I'm just observing the check ride and making an evaluation. I see a lot of of applicants speaking to air traffic control and As I’m sitting back. I'm thinking well. They said something. But I don't think. Atc really understood what that person is saying and And you need to you know as a pilot we need to pick up on the fact that maybe. Atc didn't really understand what I was getting at or day didn't understand my request one example. I always give to applicants from. We're talking about this. I say okay for sitting in this briefing room. And I tell you that there's a bomb on the table and it's going to explode in sixty seconds I would expect the reaction out of you would expect you to maybe get up and run out of the room and I’d be right behind you But a lot of times we will say things their Atc an Atc will will respond But Atc maybe didn't really get it sometimes. We have to read between the lines. So the I think the most important thing is effective communication. And there's all kinds of accident cases where there was not effective communication. Where you after. The fact We had an accident here in Houston a couple of years ago with airplane running very low on fuel down at Hobby airport and Again after the fact we all listen to it and later everyday saying how. How could the controller. Not here in the voice of of this pilot that they were running out of fuel while the pilot never really said they were running out of fuel so bottom line is effective communication. And that's what we're we're trying to effect here is is communicating effectively between the pilot and the controller. The and I think when we get the request online to to talk about proper radio techniques. There's there's a that that could be. It could be many many shows. But we're gonna try and take somewhat. Wally sees someone what I see around the flight school every day and share some techniques. That will make you better on your communications and give you some best practices to you.
So we're going to kind of talk about some guidance at a high level. And then we're gonna share some best practices and then we'll wrap it up and we're not just taking this from experience that there is a very crisp. There's crisp guidance on how to use the radio right so we're gonna reference a section of the aim. Which is the article information manual. If you if you if you talk about or heard of the foreign name there really two books. I think when. I was a student pilot maybe even a private pilot. Maybe even an instrument pilot. I thought the FAR/AIM was one book. While don’t, I guess. I just told everybody knows but I thought it was one book but it's really two books. The aim is the back and it. It's really good collection of information. I think it's underutilized. But in the far in the AIM section four dash to dash one it talks about radio communications phraseology and techniques. It's only six pages. So this podcast is going to reference almost all six pages. We're gonna talk about those items And we'll give you some other things to think about. Look at it as well. But let's talk about the commonalities that we see Wally. And and the first one like you said it's effective communication. The aim talks about the single most important thought in a pilot controller. Communications is that they both understand each other and we trained foreign students here. I know I say things to those guys and girls that they don't understand. Because I grew up here and I have a different slang and they understand English but they don't understand some of my jokes or my slang things right and I think we could. We could reference some stories where that has happened on the radio as well And you talked about screaming. Maybe not the most effective. But I’m sure the controller would understand But there is some phraseology. They will help with the communication and the understanding I think the first thing we all learn maybe second third lesson is how to call up at this airport for sure. Uncontrolled airports are a little different but call up the airport call ground. Tell them that. I'm gonna taxi m gonna go somewhere. There's a there's a technique that we all use for that right there we're going to we're going to tell we're going to tell the people were calling. We’re calling them so we would say hooks ground at this airport. We wanna tell them who we are. And what our intent is right. I every time we use the radio so at this airport for me it would be hooks ground November nine one nine tango Charlie. I'm ready to taxi. I have information Zulu. I need to run up. And I’m going to depart to the west something to that effect. Now we were talking before recording is the tail number of the right thing to do so. Let's talk about that. Initial call up breakdown for listeners and kind of give them some best practices around. Yeah, the the initial call up if you look in in this section in the aim and again the aim is non-regulatory in in nature so You could say the aim is is sort of best practices and Manners a lot of good stuff in in in the aim A lot of Lot of techniques and but anyway The one thing that it does talk about in aircraft call signs. I'm just reading. I'm reading a paragraph here. It says civil aircraft pilots should set the aircraft type model or manufacturer name followed by digits letters of the registration number. When the aircraft's manufacturer's name or a model is stated. The prefix “N” is dropped. An example as Aztec two four six four alpha. So what we seem to have here it at this airport and again I worked very closely with several flight. Schools here is most people want to call up November one two three alpha Charlie and basically By using the term November. You're telling the controller that you are a reg. Us registered airplane. Which really doesn't tell him a whole lot. There's two hundred and twelve thousand. Us registered airplanes. So you're one of two hundred twelve thousand airplanes you could be a an experimental You could be a Lear jet. You could be a helicopter Who knows what you are. So what what the aim wants to do and what it suggests is that you tell what kind of airplane you're now. Could you say. Cessna one two three alpha. Charlie absolutely And that that meets the require the request of of this paragraph in the aim. Do you tell. Atc more if you say Skyhawk one-two-three alpha Charlie you do. Because now he knows your Skyhawk your Cessna one seventy-two you do about one hundred knots.
Your speed is compatible with a warrior Your speed is not compatible with a Beechcraft baron So I think you tell them a whole lot more information. I'll give give an example on a check ride the other day we were in a situation where we're going into a controlled airport and The applicant Just used his his number and his And November so he says November one two three alpha. Charlie were ten miles east inbound for landing and the controller gave us a squawk code and he told us what to do on our left downwind for runway. Whatever and We were we happened to be in a warrior piper warrior and The controller made an assumption And I don't where he got this this but he assumed that we were Cessna and so As we're entering the downwind, he pointed us out to another aircraft. He says you're following. A Cessna on a left down wind and and We had to get on the radio and say no. We're not a Cessna. We are a warrior. Where were a low wing airplane So you just alleviate all that you you hear this control at uncontrolled airports as well You know if you're at an uncontrolled airport and you hear someone calling out there. Call sign November. One two three alpha. Charlie on a left downwind for a runway one seven Look up you. See an airplane on the left downwind while you assume. That's one two three alpha Charlie. But if you say super cub one-two-three alpha Charlie. Oh gee I know what I’m looking for. I know exactly what the what what the airplane should look like now. Could it be confusing. Could there be two Cessna in the pattern. Yeah, could there be to warriors but but you give more information and in fact you go to a lot of airports and if you just give the November one two three alpha charlie I think the controller is gonna come back and say state your type aircraft Were spoiled a little bit at this airport. Because I think all the controllers, they know most the airplanes. Live that this airplane belongs to this flight. School this airplane parks on this side of the field so They give our our pilots here. A little bit of wiggle room which you go to other airports and that's not gonna happen. No all-good thought. It's for the private or the instrument student who's out there flying around On what they should do now. I like to say that. I'm like skyline heavy. That's my tip or trick for myself. Big big bird in the air. I'm just kidding. But the thought process is there are a lot of different types of Cessna aircraft out there should and when I fly the one to, I try to start with skyline that does give them information I could be overtaking people They they at least know they were not to one seventy twos that are in the pattern etc. right so all good stuff. what about the the re beck phraseology. You know what should we read back. I fly with people on a regular basis and we do fly following the get handed off to the next the next controller and they always respond. You know I. I off skyline one four nine two uniform. I'm with you five thousand five hundred feet that and they say one four nineteen form. Thanks the college station altimeter is two nine nine two. What am I supposed to say at that point. Yeah, really at that point You know all you need to do is acknowledge it Most people will read back the altimeter It's probably wasted breath It certainly doesn't hurt anything The fact of the matter is that the wants the controller gives you that information. They probably mentally checked out to an extent So even if you read back the wrong altimeter. Or I’m not sure they're gonna catch the So I’m not sure what what good that does You know what you need to read back to the controller as as clearances cleared to You know a given altitude yeah. We'll read back that number but I hear Applicants all the time reading back the weather okay Sky clear winds are calm altimeter two nine nine two. and they're they're reading back the weather Really really not necessary. Now if you've got a question about that You you know you you. You're you're questioning the winds. Confirm the winds winds are calm okay. you get something like that back from the controller but You know I. I kind of call it. Economy a speaking sometimes Sometimes we speak a little bit too much on the radio and Again I you know.
Sometimes I I joke. I'll say some. Somebody talked a lot but they didn't say much And so I think I think we can over talk on the radio and their guidance for this in the as well right. Four dash for dash seven talks really about that that the pilots should re back parts of the instructions including altitude assignments vectors or runways and that that might sound like common sense but it should be done also with your tail number so that they don't get confused or the other people that are trying to create some situational awareness listening kind of know where you're at and where you're planning on going both in the on the ground and in the air for sure so readbacks are pretty important but we don't have to read back everything . We need to read back the pertinent information specifically clearances and those numbers that provide a lot of information. And then we'll talk a little bit about the in-route stuff. Like I do think people are confused on. What should I say while. I'm in route A regarding altitudes out the and those sorts of things. But I think its kind of the same stuff its who you're calling your call sign it aircraft information and then Relevant information as it relates to your your your flight level even though might be six thousand five hundred or If you have a request or your intentions if there are any of those as well right so there's another tool that will put in the show notes of this podcast. The you can find a lot of information out Almost call it a set of cheat sheet information on phraseology and it's called the pilot controller glossary glossary And it's it's on the FAA website it's not a huge document but provides a lot of information I'll I’ll i'll. I'll throw another thing that I don't think I’m good at, I think. Sometimes I say roger. When I probably shouldn't say roger like maybe I should've used wilco There's a lot of those things that are in the pilot controller. Glossary that I think would benefit everyone to use To read and then use that stuff correctly because when people use wilco. I'm like oh that sounds cool man. Yeah, they say wilco on like they got everything you know they. They told the controller everything. The controller ever needed to know right. And I just don't always used wilco right. And then. Sometimes i'll say roger that and I feel like I’m a captain of an airliner but I’m saying the wrong stuff right yeah Affirmative means yes. Negative means no Roger means I received your last transmission while wilco says I received a will do exactly what you say I think we'll. We'll talk more about it but I think it's a really good time that we should talk about unable right like it's a very useful word for any pilot. Yeah, and something that I think controllers would tell us I work with some controllers. Pretty close they would tell us that hurt their feelings if we say unable and if you need to say you really should say it right and let me just go back to what we're just you talking about a little bit I see a lot of confusion. Between roger and affirmative. And and roger as you said roger just means that you've received what they said Of affirmative means yes so. I'll here Cessna or Skyhawk one one-two-three three traffic twelve o'clock three miles. Same altitude And how do you have insight and The the applicant will see the airplane. They'll say are roger and that that doesn't really say anything so what you want. Say is affirmative. We do have the traffic insight and You know a cup below You know one phrase that has been creeping in vocabulary of pilots. That I’ve begin to hear just really in the last six to eight weeks is I have eyes on the traffic And I think that's a police thing. I think I think I think I’ve heard it on. Tv I have is on the suspect. And I’ve actually heard controllers question the pilot saying You know what what and and Say I I have is on the traffic now. Can it be effective communication. Yeah, I think it can but that's really That's not an aviation phrase. You know the best thing we would want to say it would be. Traffic is insight. And the thing that I know one of my assistant’s chiefs who works at Houston center At Atc he would say similar to that Phrases like no joy.
you know. come out. And it's I think it's pilots trying to be cute or sound like they're soon pilots maybe Got him on the box. Yeah, real common. Yeah, like what kind of box do you have. Box of big boxer a little bit yeah or one that I think is continuously growing. And I’ve probably been at fall to say this is I have him on ADSB. Which probably means. I've got foreflight. And I’ve ADSB in receiver. And so. I’m I see a plane on my screen. But that's not what especially under VFR conditions. That's not what a controller wants to know right. They wanna know. Do you really have visual contact with that aircraft right And so lots of slang. Lots of lots of things that aren't in the glossary that we that we hear often the guys and girls should not be using While you're talking. Atc for sure. Another thing that that. I find interesting. That's in the aim that I’ve been asked about and as a flight school owner is pretty near and dear to my heart is the section four dash to dash four seasons. Charlie and that is the student pilot. And I think it's something that we should all encourage student pilots to use Wally I ask you your thoughts earlier. But let's let's tell the whole world what you think. What are your thoughts on this section and the use of it. I can honestly say when. I was a student pilot. I'd never complied with this. basically it it it says that on your first call up to Atc they. You should identify yourself as a student pilot. And the more. I think about this The more I’m on board with us. I mean it is. It is in the aim and again aim non-regulatory in nature. So do you have to comply with this. No but is this best practices. Yeah, it is absolutely so. I think it raises the juice. Well definitely raises the awareness of the the controller. debt It's a student pilot There are certain phrases that A lot of time on a check ride Maybe a private pilot check ride. We’re trying to get out from underneath the bravo airspace and we we level off at an intermediate altitude and the applicant Automatically pulls the power back to Two thousand rpm. We're puzzling along at eighty-five knots and I got somewhere to be or or we want to kind of expedite. The check rides. And I will say maintain best forward airspeed and A lot of times they. They've never heard that phrase. And I think with a controller if you identify yourself as a student pilot and if were to give you something like that Maintain best forward airspeed and you maybe Came back to them with Say again or or or you know alluded to you. Don't understand what he means. I think he's going to be more in tune to your situation that You're a student pilot. And hopefully he he would say disregard and give you a little bit more space operated. The the aimed specifically calls out that they give extra systems and consideration. And I think I think any controller that's working in Houston probably has some experience and they know that a student pilot probably needs a little bit more time a little bit more clarity and the little bit slower talking. I mean Texans can talk fast either way whether your controller not some some controllers. Really talk fast. So I think it's a huge benefit for my students. That are either in the pattern or going on their first long cross country to just identify themselves as a student pilot and and hopefully. Atc's hang that information off as transverse different control centers as well it. It can only help. And don't we don't we. We just did first solo a few few weeks ago back then. We want them all to be successful. They can be. I mean we want to give him every benefit that they got and this is one benefit that they're to us you might as well use it for sure absolutely so you just said say again. I know that we've talked a little bit about this off the air Why not why not say. Repeat that yeah you you You know there's a couple of of phrases that that I hear A lot on check rides and And you the controller gives an instruction or clearance and you you want them to You didn't get it. You need You need to hear it again.
You know the proper phrase is say again. I hear a lot of lot of students. Say repeat and and ninety nine percent of the time the controller repeats it and they they understand it Well we have to understand. And and what I try to get a feeling for with my applicants is where they want to go would their flying career and I may treat to check rides a little bit differently. Come at him from a little bit different angles depending on the objective of the applicant I mean obviously. We're still going to adhere to the acs in in all that good stuff but You know a lot of if you're fly professionally, you're gonna fly out of the country and you may be talking to a controller whose native language is not English and they’re their command of the English. Language is is maybe not that good so We want to stick with the the proper phraseology and You know say again as well. We want to say to to have something repeated so It it. It is less confusing to the controller. If you can use the proper the proper phrase and Especially you know. Over the middle of south America in the middle of the night when you're talking to a controller whose native languages Portuguese or Spanish You you know you don't you don't want any area for confusion yet. I probably don't use that I say repeat or something So I will incorporate again in the future and be a better be a better pilot or communicator. Because of it. So let's jump into some best practices and we've got a list of seven eight nine things we want to share with everybody Before we wrap up so this is a big one. It's talked about a lot. I don't think we all do it enough. And I think the better the longer you get in the in the pilot's seat the worst you get of this probably but it's listened before you transmit right. We we change channels a lot. We go from practice area to tower to maybe the Atc. That's going to help shoot a practice. Approach something like that when we switched that channel. That doesn't mean we're just because we're on that channel that it's our channel right. Should we should listen if you were giving guidance in your obviously a professional pilot. And you do a lotta of work. How long should someone listened before they communicate. I would say Three to five seconds The thing a lot of times your controller is listening to multiple frequencies And so he may be getting an ear full from another frequency and you don't hear it And so you know. Switch the frequency. Give it three to five seconds. And then at that point Check in Houston center. Skyhawk one one-two-three three alpha. Charlie six thousand five hundred and You know give them a few minutes. Or I shouldn't say a few minutes few seconds Most of the time he's gonna come right back to you and say one. Two three out for charlie roger radar contact college station altimeter to ninety-nine or two You know if if you don't hear from him maybe twenty. Thirty seconds Maybe give it another call You know one reason. We like to have You know most radios. Have a a standby in an active frequency. You know it's nice to have the old frequency there so if you make two three four radio costume and you don't hear from him You can just push the button. Go back to the old frequency and You know this happens a lot with airlines. you just call him back and say You know for center We nobody you know. Typically what i'll say home on one two three five seven okay trying other frequency so You know it. It's it's just conversational etiquette. You know if you're sitting at a dinner table with a bunch of people, You're not gonna just jump in you're gonna wait till there's a lull in the conversation before you Before you start saying what you need to say and just keep in mind that The controller is probably work in many airplanes. You're not the only one out there so And he may be dealing with an emergency that you don't know about so just have patience the thing.
I'll add that this one is three to five. Seconds is a great rule of thumb. If you're changing being directed to change channels etc. if you're flying to a non-controlled airport where you're flying back even in this situation. I'm practicing now flying back to to hooks. And I’m twenty miles away but I’m still in the practice area. There's no reason why. I don't stay on the practice area. Assuming I have radios and then start listening to hooks at twenty miles knowing that. I'm not gonna call them. Until I’m twelve the ten miles. That's probably going to be more like four minutes. That I’m listening but I can learn a lot of information I can learn will weigh their landing traffic right now. Even if I’ve got the weather know that information that could have changed, I know how busy they are. Kind of. Get a sense of are they. Do they have six jets lined up. And I’m going to have to hold out here for a while for some reason so I like to to listen a lot longer if approaching an airport or a center of area where there's a lotta aircraft. Yeah, just switching radios. I like the three to five seconds. But I would say much longer. If I’m going somewhere. That has a radio. I should be at least listening in on some of that stuff. Oh definitely and I. I talked to people. I say look We were given two ears and we're giving one mouth so what's more important listening or talking. I can learn so much by listening to what the tower is given the other airplanes. If I’m going from coming back here to remain in the pattern, I'm probably going to get the same thing as the other airplanes in the pattern. They four airplanes in right traffic Chances are they're not gonna give me left traffic so I’m already p- expecting right traffic now. It may change it may change and you may have to a adjust but Already I got an idea of what's going on. I mean the runway may be closed. Maybe they had a disabled airplane on their on their own way So you know. Wouldn't it be nice to know if I’m going to divert to another airport. Wouldn't it be nice to know twenty-five miles out rather than eight miles out. No down. I can make my decision. I might be right. On top of another airport that I can divert to the next best practices. Know what you're going to say and A close friend of mine works at ATC said ptt is not stand it stands for push to talk it does not stand for push to think and Seeing and hearing a lot of student pilots around here watching a lotta people learn how to fly. I hear a lot of button pushing in a long pause and a Hooks ground I got I got the weather. It's India and You know that they're not prepared right so know what you're gonna say. I tell people. I wrote the whole thing down every time before. Tax it out as a student pilot it made me a better communicator. And I would say do the same thing other guidance said I’ve heard best practice. Wise would be. If you don't know exactly the phraseology disuse. Plain English like yes. I'm here. I wanna go there and just talk through that like you would at dinner table as I think sometimes people get that that Because they're trying to be trying to sound like like maverick and they're trying to say exactly the correct pilot wordage right and that's just not helping anybody right Be clear concise and precise We talked about this a lot. Right just be short. Say what you need to say but don't don't ramble on and on about it. A good one is never assume. I think this one catches a lot of people. We talk about it here lot when you leave the same f. b. o. And you taxi to the same place for a run up and you kind of know the traffic patterns if the winds are from the south are always going to be one seven right you kind of get lulled into this. I'm going to go here and they're going to tell me how to get there. This way. That expectation expectation bias can really bite. It doesn't take much to to turn the the pattern around and you'd be going some somewhere completely different so try to never assume slow it down is always a good one. I think students are trying to be fast to It's not too hard to just take a deep breath write something down. Slow back down to them too often. I think it's an ego. Maybe I don't know why. Why do we try to sound like a a superstar air airline pilot when we're not I don't know I don't know that's that's a great question I think one of the things, I think. Radio communication is probably one of the more intimidating things for New pilots You you always hear them talk. I'm I know.
I know my my daughters. Were were intimidated by it and I. I hope that they've gotten over that But Well I know they have actually I don't know I don't know It's just something that I think It's an embarrassment every- every- they think everybody in the world is hearing them. They think everybody in the world is analyzing them. And that's not the case. I mean I’ve. I've laughed at people on the radio but and I joked that I’m not laughing at them. I'm laughing with them because it's probably a mistake. I have made I know when. I first got back into flying general aviation airplanes Six seven years ago. It was all I could do to not say united before. I said my call sign and so many times with a Skyhawk five. Three whatever so You know even in that case there was you know I was. I was a little embarrassed. But I people aren't laughing at you. It's we all make mistakes. And and that's fine. Yeah, we talked a little bit about unable. But that's the best practice right really use it. Don't be afraid to use it controllers aren't going to get mad at you And you are pilot in command. So if you're unable use the word unable and don't take advantage of it but use it if you need and and I think just listening to what the controller says We we see this a lot where we're coming back in at the end of a check ride. Maybe we're going to do some landings here and we'd call up and we say Cessna Skyhawk one two three charlie inbound for touching goes with information bravo and He may say roger right Base way one seven right cleared to land. You know right. There is the time to clear up. Just confirm You know to to let the controller. No we would like to remain in the pattern so we don't really want to be cleared to land. We ought to be cleared for touching go cleared for the option Hopefully so You know try to listen to what the controller is saying. and if it's if it's really not Maybe not what you're expecting are or you think he is thinking something else Let them know you just yesterday. We took off from way. One seven here at hooks one seven right and we wanted to go to the northeast and the controller gave us a right turn out and And we can certainly turn to the northeast via a right. Turn off one seven right but it's Definitely not the norm. And I think in the long in and the the applicant can did say something to the controller once we got in the air and it was pretty obvious that the controller expected that we were going to the north west. When we're actually gonna the northeast so we're able to clear that up and Take care of things not turned into a a nonevent but had we just turned to the north west or excuse me to the northeast. He may have been Not too pleased with us. No doubt the last couple is asked for help when you need it, I've never talked to an air traffic controller. Who said don't bother me or I don't wanna help you. They all are very service-minded. They wanna help. They want to help us all. Get to where we're going to go. They want to help us if we have anything anything, they can help with a no. They want to do it. There's never been a question about it. And the last thing i'll say is we learned really early on. It’s in this order for a reason. The real job of a pilot is to aviate navigate then communicate while this shows about communicating. It's really more important than you. Av eight I navigate second communicate third yes And I think every person that works in. Atc would would ten times over. Tell pilot to do those things in that exact order for sure. Yeah, thanks for the show idea. Hopefully this has been a good one for everybody out there. If you have a show idea. Please let us know by sending an email to bobby or Wally bobby@behindtheprop.com wally@behindtheprop.com and we will make a show on until next time. Fly safe and stay behind the prop.
Thanks for listening. Thanks for checking out the Behind The Prop podcast. be sure to click subscribe and check us out online at BehindTheProp.com behind the prop is recorded in Houston, Texas. Show creator and host is Bobby Doss. Co-host is Wally Mulhearn. This show is for entertainment purposes Only. and not meant to replace actual flight instruction. Thanks for listening and remember: fly safe!